basic speed

I disagree with this. The sessions should be conducted at a more comfortable level and will be easier since the progression hasnt started. The intensity, as you may agree, should increase throughout the year. I stand by my original ideas.

Another point... the time given for 12miles is quite slow. Whilst I agree that there should be 1 or 2 slow long slogs in there right now, I believe that as well as adding in the appropriate workouts, some runs should be shortened and the pace increased. These preferably done on flatter terrain.

Also, dont mix up hills and running hills during a run. Completely different.

Working on a two week cycle I'd include, based on your low intensity view...

1 hill workout (lengths as I suggested)

1 VO2 max workout.

1 - 2 tempo runs/efforts.

2 - 3 long slow runs.

The rest shorter faster runs. The idea of a fartlek run could be kept in but this is generally used earlier in the training cycle or as a workout in easier weeks. (every 4th week should be cut down.)

Move to 1 - 2 of both hill and VO2 (so 2 hill, 1 VO2 etc per 2 weeks in 3months time.

Your short hill sprints will do little without the paces in the middle to link everything. The progression and intensity will increase WITHIN the workouts. Not due to adding more.

Hi, I'm a 20 flat at best 5k runner who does have some basic speed (sub 60 400 now, was faster before I had back and knee trouble). It does not seem help me run a decent 5k, but that does not mean that if I improved my speed, that it would not improve my 5k.

It would depend on why my basic speed improved. If I became more explosive, such that I could dunk a basketball or pull off a decent long jump, that would improve my 200, but not my 5k. If I learned to run more efficiently though, this would improve both. Sorry if this is too obvious. I think this why sometimes improving one's 200 will lead to a fast 5k, but other times it will not.

I think 200 meters reps will improve the latter. A 200 meter race may be about explosiveness, but running 200s for reps is more about efficiency and speed endurance. 300 meters might be a better rep distance though, because that's when most people start to slow down.

Oddly enough, I just went on a 1:50 run. It was only a little over 11 miles, but it was over rolling hills. I don't normally do this, just decided to the other day. I haven't read the entire thread yet, so I'll take a close look at the training.

I'm only at about 25 miles per week now. I want to keep my weight up. Just setting goals in the 5k to test my cardio for general health, and to run a faster 800/mile. Maybe we can compare notes on training though. I'd also like to run under 19 in the 5k, because that would break my old PR.

Yes. Some very good infact. Boys and girls. I too was on a similar programme, albeit less miles at that age. In fact, many of the better runners I've seen, and looking back ran with, made it to the top due to their year round commitment to sessions and hard work. Those who don't start soon enough simply don't get the chance. The idea of burning out young due to intensity is a little dated. Doing workouts all year is something all the best younger athletes do. (Yes, I do know a few.) They've also been doing it since high school. The key is that the workouts are completed at a lower level earlier in the year to avoid burn out. People generally seem to 'burn out' due to the fact they've reached their limit, improper rest or recovery through the weeks or bad coaching(not knowing when to pull a session, when the athlete is too tired or injured etc). Not the training. Just genetics or improper care. After all, not everyone can be the best. But to be in with a chance, you have to be training hard. I can understand your fear. Some people do thrive off the training you have described. But you're already reaching a very high amount of running hours.

OK, good stuff. I appreciate this. The 12 miler is on hilly trails and I'm totally guessing the distance, as nothing is marked. The Saturday long run/12 miler is just something she does with no regard to pace.

I figured since we were focusing a bit on effort & pace on M, W, & F, that that was enough in this base period, but I hadn't considered the idea that "short hill sprints will do little without the paces in the middle to link everything". That is an interesting observation & makes sense, now that I think about it.

So VO2 workouts should primarily be repeats in the 500-800M range, totaling up to something like 5k, with fairly long recoveries? I have no clue what her 3k pace is, but may start her at something like 5k pace - or at least what her 5k XC PR was in Nov., a 6:23/mi pace. What do you think of that?

Do you advise significant changes in training once we're within a month or so of the fall XC season?

Do you currently coach a HS or college team - or done so in the past?

500m - 1200m normally. I'd stay within the 500m - 1k range for a HS girl. I always see the progression as starting with 8 x 500 2 30 rec, going to 8 x 600m with 2 00rec. With obvious steps in between. eg 9 - 10x 500m 2 30rec etc. Then 5 x 800 progressing to 7x800 to 6x1k again with other steps. Perhaps recoveries ranging from 3mins down to 2mins on this one.

Therefore you have two progressions to work on through the year. Just from one type of work. See how the idea is to change what happens within the sessions more so than the amount. Early season mileage is a base for quicker mileage. Early season VO2 is a base for more instense VO2 and so on?

Perhaps start off making the sessions a little shorter, say 5 x 500m at 3k pace at the end of a 30-40min run inorder to get used to the pace and idea.

Getting closer to race season, add in some 1:1 rep:recovery sessions. eg. 2 x 8, 4 x 6, 6 x 4. Thus recoveries are getting tighter with an increase in pace and fatigue to really get the body working hard and moving gears. 15 x 400m with 60s is also a nice one. Getting closer to a peak race I'd perhaps change one of the hill or VO2 sessions to 3 - 5 x 1mile or 5-6x 1k off 2mins on the terrain of the race. Done quite hard to simulate.

I take a slightly different role. I have coached and helped coach HS and college athletes but have no offical links with a college. I have strong links with many coaches and athletes due to my role. I'm also very closely connected to a girl of your daughters age who is very talented.

To add, those two progressions are seperate. Finishing with the harder 1k and 600 sessions. Just slightly different paces but working the same system from different angles. Alternate between the two progression pathways throughout.

very good stuff. For a HS girl who has apparently been somewhat undertrained for VO2 max work, do you generally feel a 90 sec drop in 5k XC PR in a year is realistic, assuming we make the changes you recommend? We're being told 18:30+- is where she needs to be to be considered for a scholarship to some of the D1 schools she's interested in (not necessarily perennial NCAA powers, but smaller, quality academic schools). That would be an approx 80 sec drop from last fall..

Thats a tough question to answer really. I've seen athletes make that kind of % jump before. Generally hadn't been running too long before. Although perhaps not having trained these systems this is the same type of thing. All my years, I've found that the majority of the better coaches and athletes all have regular hills in their program. No matter what distance. I'd be extremely surprised if progress was not made after a month or two of regular hill work if set out as I showed. This on top of VO2 work to give that base and some harder sharpeners later on will provide the athlete with a huge boost. Be careful of the mileage work load while adding quality. Remember the emphasis is shifting ever so slightly. Little point in the workouts if the quality is too low due to being tired especially heading towards the races.

Since this is a big jump in one year it will be mentally tough whatever. The athlete should be pushed. If quality workouts havent been undertaken before (specifically hills) then she may struggle mentally. Especially in the 3months before key races. There will be tears, Will be sick and she will go through sessions that she just wants to give up or stop. If this isn't the case theres not enough work going in. The potential will not be reached. This clearly cannot go on year round. But that 3 months of pain and ache will have to be met. The job of the coach will be to notice the difference between when an athlete is tired due to the previous reps or ill/off key. A tough job.

OK, she has a 5k on the track end of March. Will let you know how she does. Thanx again.

Geez, that training plan is ridiculous.

I might expect that for a sub 15min runner, but for someone that can't crack 19?

Why on Earth do you have so many ridiculously long runs? 1 hour 50? Plus another 90 and 70?

That is way, way too much for the speeds she's running.

I'd max that long run out at 75-80 mins with nothing else over 60. You want more volume, do doubles. Once you handle the doubles, start speeding up the easy runs while maintaining workouts.

That plan is really awful, to be frank. I'm not surprised she isn't running very fast. She can't off that workload!

broke dad wrote:

1:50 easy trail run is probably 12 miles. I don't think a weekly 12 miler in the base period is that crazy.. Invariably when I see posts about how crazy something like a 12 mile weekly run is, the poster says something like it should be 10 miles. Not sure it's worth arguing the distance of a weekly long run, provided it's not a 20 miler or something..

That's still 1:50 of running. On top of 70 and 90 minute runs.

That's still entirely TOO MUCH for someone that slow with goals of racing a 5k as fast as possible.

You need to seriously reign in that time.

my two cents

She may not know how to move her limbs quickly and this may be a major factor in this lack of speed. Easiest way to get this started i've found is to include some very gradual downhill slopes in one of your long runs. 2-3 degrees gradient at the most. Then just encourage her to go faster and faster and she will limit herself at some point. Just leave it there and return to the same type of thing a few days later. She will go a little faster and for a little longer than the first time. Riding a bike for the first few times is a good analogy.

it's not ridiculous. we do most of our running on trails, some fairly technical, so her pace is a lot slower than it'd be on the roads. We're in a base period & her mileage right now is under 60mpw. She's also been running for approx 5 years.

It's funny how everyone looks at kenyan girls & praises their monster aerobic engines from running 10 miles to & from school, yet American girls should not exceed 8-9 miles on their longest run, lest they 'burn out'

why? is running harmful? do you really believe someone that's gradually worked up to a 12 mile weekly long run over a period of years on a soft surface is hurting themselves? where is the evidence of that? she's had 1 minor injury in 5 years - & that only resulted in a total of maybe 2 weeks missed training.

I think the point is that its too much *time* running given her pace. Sure it may be 60 mpw but thats because she isn't Galen Rupp. For him that would probably be 100mpw and thats his job, to run.

You have to factor in pace when deciding how much time to run. The miles really aren't as important.

I would expect that she has gone as far as that training is going to take her. Not that its time wasted but I think you need to diversify to improve.

Take Salazars advice and learn to run fast.

agreed. that's pretty much what we're doing. Last year, during a long base period, we pretty much just put in miles & miles for months - no tempos, no progression runs, no VO2 stuff, no hill work. This year we're adding all that stuff, but keeping the mileage about where it was last year

To the OP, I have 53 quarter speed, and run a little under 16:00 5k. Take that as you will.

M - 60steady + 6 x 100m stride.

T - 5-6mile Threshold (Uncomfortable but not hard) (Tempo reps such as 3 x 10, 4 x 6 or 5 x 5 etc closer to race season)

W - 50easy

T - 60steady

F - Aerobic hills (the longer hill session I added. Possibly 40 - 60s if not a little longer if you wanted to keep it more aerobic and slower. Shorter hills could be held off a month or two. Your 4 8second hills with full recovery (5mins) could be done before this.

S - 90 long easy.

S - 60 steady. + strides.

M - 3-5mile threshold (this shorter threshold can become harder until a true hard tempo effort later on)

T - 60easy

W - rest

T - 60steady + strides

F - VO2 (possibly starting off with 30mins steady and a half session)

S - 90 long easy

S - 60 steady + strides.

As it gets closer to race season I suggest switching the 2nd week to monday VO2 work, Thursday threshold and sunday a second workout (eg the mile/K reps or alternative workout). Perhaps even workout on saturday so the long 90mins does take everything out the legs and move the long run to sunday. This extra is up to you and how you feel about it. Personally, myself and many others I know have worked well off of 3 workouts a week most of the year. (including the thresholds).

This is my alternative to your original plan. Keep easy pace comfortable but maybe look to increase the steady pace. The tempos would be best on flatter roads. Maybe the some of the runs on a flatter terrain too. Not all of them though. This is still ALOT of running time so the aerobic side shouldn't suffer what so ever. Infact, making them a bit short but faster may even make the aerobic engine stronger. Including 2mile warm up and down I dont see why this shouldn't be up to the mileage you'd like. I think until you get to doing the miles a bit faster the 'time on feet' should be used as a better measure.

After 2 cycles, add an easy week with maybe just an easier threshold and fartlek. Drop the time running. Then start again with week one and progressed sessions.

Also, do any circuits?

Infact, looking at that, you may even be better cutting a 60min steady or two to increase the pace or split it into two runs for the day. Say 40 and 30.