Solomon suddenly world class and Rupp soloing 3.50 indoor miles - Come on Letsun, ask the questions!

12.

Makh-Daddy wrote:

uhhh....what's the cube root of 1728???

rupp-certified saladbar wrote:

Not sure why you call him a 1:45/1:46 guy when he ran 1:45 five years in a row.

I'm confused. Woudln't that be the definition of a 1:45 guy?

Solomon has underachieved for years. He has 45.9 flat 400 speed electronically timed out of the blocks, so 1:42 isn't ridiculous. Historically he ran stupid tactical races, going out way too fast and then fading on the second lap. Last year he started racing smarter and got stronger. He began to reach his potential. Could he be doping? Sure, that could be the difference in his second lap strength, but it isn't necessarily so. His improvement isn't that suspicious.

wejo wrote:

obviously true wrote:

It's clear that some sort of doping is going on. However, results are results, and we'll turn a blind eye so long as we're entertained.

There are the posts I don't like.

When people say "it's clear" that some sort of doping (or not doping for that matter) is going on just from some results.

So what everyone breaking a record is automatically a doper?

I don't think anything is clear. Anyone testing positive wouldn't surprise me these days, but that doesn't mean I still don't believe in the beauty of our sport so I'm not automatically jaded by records being broken.

I do think results can be used in arguments, but try and make a well-informed argument.

The type of post you quote is EXACTLY the type of post I've LOUDLY protesting against here for a long time.

AND IT IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF CRAP YOU SHOULD NOT PERMIT ON YOUR WEBSITE.

Anyone posting this kind of crap if they could see hour for hour the work a Rupp or Farah puts in day in and day out...would realize that it is possible to do it clean.

It's ironic, sad and stupid that you can talk about believing in the "beauty" of our sport, when you have stewardship over the most ugly web destination in our sport.

Clearly you have a block to really thinking things through.

You don't care what innocent people get thrown under the buss in "print" on your website...all in the quest of profits.

The thing is...the forum here has devolved into a place where ALMOST EVERY ELITE has been accused on this site of being on PEDS.

It's become a place to just accuse people, where the accusers have no authority, knowledge or believability.

There's a place for that...at the pub, sportsbar, or with your friends.

Not a website purporting to be an "authority."

Both you and your brother posting and sanctifying this thread and this forum...is sad and pathetic.

silly gooses wrote:

He didnt suddenly get great, but he did recently graduate college.

(Rupp's) progression and consistency are perfect.

Rupp always is seemingly getting better. That is true.

I think the thing that surprises people the most is how he has gotten WAY faster in recent years at shorter distances.

He ran 4:01.8 in HS in 2004.

For years, he couldn't break 4:00. As recently as 2008, he was still a 4:01 guy. Sort of reminded many people of Ryan Hall - fast in HS but maybe he's really a long distance guy.

He finally breaks 4:00 for first time in 2009. Now 4 years later, he's a 3:50 indoor miler.

I agree entirely with the substance of A Duck's remarks, although I think the tone could have been tempered. However, what must also be noted is that it is impossible for anyone to prove beyond doubt that he is clean. In the case of the Rupp, Farah, and Ritz training group, I'm as confident that I can be that they are all clean. Why? Setting aside their extraordinary potential as exhibited when they were in high school (Rupp and Ritz in particular), there's this: this is not just any training group--this is NIKE'S training group. It is inconceivable to me that Phil Knight and the Nike hierarchy would permit their hallmark long distance athletes, who train on the Nike campus, who are there everyday, to bring shame upon the Nike brand.

agip wrote:

why are you a track fan? Must be difficult for you.

Yes, pathetic, and the fact that it is not a thread started by anyone using their own name, or even an established handle.

It's just bullshitt.

Solomon's progression doesn't look unusual.

"Running on Empathy" and a bunch of people have been pointing out that Rupp's mile time was weak for years, and that he was capable of more.

What was it, last week, someone posted a thread "Has Rupp Ever Been Injured?"

Bob Kennedy advised Salazar of two things when Rupp was discovered as a talent:

1. Bring him along slow.

2. Keep him injury free.

Kennedy pointed out that most important key to his success, was slowly adding the miles over the years, and unbroken training by staying healthy...and of course taking a few weeks off every year.

The OVERWHELMINGLY stupid tragedy of this site is that the World Famous Message Boards talk about the wrong things.

The proper focus is that Rupp has indeed been stewarded with a watchful eye to being him along slowly, keep him uninjured and healthy.

To which I would add that last year Rupp ran one second faster (3:34) at most, and that was at the end of a hard week. His race today, on a very fast track, is perhaps a bit better. We should also remember Rupp can run 11.0 for 100 meters and low 50s for 400. The guy has run 26:48: what would we expect for today? I think what we got. Last year there were twenty-four different guys who ran sub 3:34 at least once.

I used my first initial and my second name. My first name is Patrick if that makes my post more relevant. I have posted on these boards maybe 10 tens in 6/7 years so I have no well known handle. I actually think the forum in general is pretty poor due to anonymous trolling but I wanted to make a point directly at the Letsrun guys.

I think you are kidding yourself if you think that major increases in performance from athletes in their late 20s should not be questioned. I would love for the sport to be clean enough where they can be believed without question but that is not that the case. To stop doubting is to give up and let the whole thing be dirty.

I'm not saying I believe either Rupp or Solomon are using. Incidentally, my personal but irrelevant opinion is that one of them is dirty). I'm saying they need to be questioned in the same manner that Morrocans or Russians or sprinters get questioned.

Considering the tone of your posts, I suspect you are the type of person who vociferously and agressively defended Lance from the beginning. The kind of guy who hurled vitriol at Walsh and Kimmage for having the guts and the professionalism to ask the questions. I love the 'how dare you' tone of the posts considering I have not accused anybody of anything.

I already asked the only question I wanted to ask today, but I did it on another site :)

silly gooses wrote:

If rupp doped, then you would have to say that he has been doing so for over a decade and while a high schooler living under his parents roof. The guy was a 4:01 8:0x 13:37 highschooler folks! He ran 28:15 pretty much solo as a college freshmen. I believe he fell down in the race and had a massive negative split. He didnt suddenly get great, but he did recently graduate college.

His progression and consistency are perfect.

And Marion Jones was a freak as a High schooler.

And Lance Armstrong was National Champion as a HSer competing in triathlon.

I feel like Rupp is too innocent to be doping.... I've always imagined him as a toddler in a very fit adult's body.

It's fine to be consistent.

Improvement does not necessarily make me think of doping - its changes in appearance (Flojo), sudden explosiveness (Ramzi) or unprecedented ability(Jacobs,Russian and Chinese women). For example, if someone comes in and blows away an Olympic field. It's suspicious. I'll admit I first thought TM was dirty like Ramzi. Now I am not so sure, the race was weird.

It's not like Rupp is running time never run by others. He ran a 26:48 - 30 seconds off the world record. He focused on speed the last 3/4 years after 5 years years of building aerobic ability. I think 3:51 is probably something a lot of top 5000 guys could do. Not too many 10000 guys can do it but could and he closed the Olympic 5000 in 3:57.

Solomon could be a consistent 1:43 guy. I think he underachieved for a couple of years and then was in the best 800 ever.

I am generally not suspicious of men's 800 - marathon worldwide.

A Duck wrote:

The thing is...the forum here has devolved into a place where ALMOST EVERY ELITE has been accused on this site of being on PEDS.

A Duck please note that people accused me of doping myself on here. Not that I was at Rupp or Solomon's territory but it just comes with being in sport. I considered it a compliment. I had rapid improvement and found it amusing they assumed I had to be doping.

I didn't take it too personally and I understand why the posters thought what they did.

I stand for a clean sport and know that everyone is under suspicion. Let them have their opinions. Let them make bs statements.

If athletes get sick of asking about whether they're clean our desire is that they will be at the forefront leading for a cleaner, more transparent sport.

And just because I do not like a post does not mean it gets removed.

I don't agree that all these "innocent people" are getting thrown under the bus all in the name of LetsRun profits.

These are not "innocent people" off the street. These "innocent people" are some of the top track athletes in the world who make a living off of endorsements. They are not being thrown under a bus. People are discussing whether they think they are clean or not. Professional athletes can handle that kind of talk.

These innocent people you refer to, some who make hundreds of thousands a year off the public's goodwill, are expected at any time to face a knock on the door from a stranger, go into the bathroom, turn, face towards the stranger, and piss into a cup, while the stranger watches. If you can handle that and you get to make a living off of endorsements, I think you can stand speculation on a forum as whether you might be doping all in the name of a cleaner sport.

Galen and Duane were two of the greatest stories in US distance running last year. But just because of that we're not supposed to allow people to ask questions or speculate? Should we only allow people to say positive things about them?

What about arguable the greatest story in endurance sports the last decade- Lance Amstrong? Should we have not allowed any speculation about him until after he went on Oprah and admitted it?

The point is not that I'm trying to group Galen or Duane with Lance, but that we don't have the ability to be determine magically who is clean or dirty with some magical ball and only allow speculation about the dirty ones.

These are pro athletes. Being talked about comes with the territory.

When Chip Kelly left Oregon, I'm sure all the college football forums only let fans say positive things about him right? Should they not allow discussions on whether he broke any NCAA rules?

That's not how the real sports world works, and that's not how running should work either.

You 2 are ridiculous. You sound a lot like all the Lance believers who still defend him after he admits doping because he never tested positive. The Nike logic is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You're painting them to be holier than thou and saying they are above doping. Look at past history with Nike's involvement in athletics: Lance, Athletics West, Mark Block at the trials, Tiger Woods, Marion Jones, etc etc. Nike does not care if their sponsored athletes dope, they only care when they get caught. They are a huge business and want to turn a profit like anyone else. Sometimes they turn a blind eye towards cheating which is what happens in all walks of life everyday. To say without a doubt that nothing fishy is going on is obtuse.

Wejo. You admitted to doping. Granted it wasn't an "illegal" drug but you did claim the substance in question "enhanced" your performance. So I guess you just have to take the right stuff. Eh?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/26/health/nutrition/26best.html?pagewanted=all

Best thread in a long time. This is a discussion that needs to take place.

well if you want to cherry pick examples, I can do that too.

Every runner who improves quickly or wins a gold is accused of doping. But...no doubt many of them were not dopers. Find a list of gold medalists and some will have been falsely accused of doping.

Voila! Those fans who denied these athletes were dopers were not naive, not obtuse! These people were right to believe their athletes were clean.

Those who believe Rupp is clean have good, logical reasons to believe so. You have no right no lay down absolutes ( such as saying 'they all dope') down - there is no evidence on your side.

so og silver or 2648 didnt change anything for you? then why does this progression suddenly change everything?

vsdvsvv wrote:

I agreed with this as of yesterday. A 3:50 indoor mile changes everything.