I DO NOT UNDERSTAND V02 MAX

No Way wrote:

I almost had a stroke when I saw him type that physiologists didn't understand these basic concepts.

I'm going beyond basic here. Read a bit more carefully and you might see.

plateau or peak? wrote:

But how can you know if the numbers are accurate? How can you know if the athlete has truly reached maximum heart rate?

And

what is the relationship between stroke volume and plasma volume?

what is the relationship between stroke volume and heart rate?

And what is the relationship between plasma volume and heart rate?

Thanks.

As for accuracy, you need to make sure the machine is properly calibrated. Then after the test you can look at some of the values. There are "checks" if you will. You can look at things like age-predicted max, RER/RQ, pace achieved and RPE to sort of validate the readings, but if a person quits when it starts to get tough, then you will not have accurate results. Invariably someone would finish a VO2max test and after catching their breathe would say "I could have kept going". My response was "Okay, let's fire the treadmill (or bike) back up!" No one ever took me up on that.

If plasma volume does down, stroke volume will go down as well.

Thanks. I understand all of that, but I don't agree with your last point. In well trained athletes, the stroke volume does not decrease with plasma decrease, it either stays the same or increases. This is the important issue I am trying to understand. In other words can we get our heart rates as high as a less endurance trained runner? I think so, and this is the key to our best performances.[/quote]

An immediate response to heat stress is greater contractility, which will at least maintain stroke volume, if not increase it. BUT, if the heat stress is prolonged into dehydration, the hyperthermic stress on the cardiac tissue combined with reduced plasma volume will surely decrease stroke volume.

Some researchers say that for well trained runners, stroke volume actaully increases as heart rate rises and keeps increasing. Presumably by the influence of the myocardium?

There is a special zone of performance that I am trying to discuss here, where heart rate is very high, higher than normal in well trained runners, but the effort feels comfortable and breathing is not laboured i.e. not crossing the ventilatory threshold.

Rod Munch wrote:

An immediate response to heat stress is greater contractility, which will at least maintain stroke volume, if not increase it. BUT, if the heat stress is prolonged into dehydration, the hyperthermic stress on the cardiac tissue combined with reduced plasma volume will surely decrease stroke volume.

Thanks, I agree that heat stress negates this benefit. However, in athletes acclimatized to heat stress, does more sweat come from the skin cells and less fluid from the plasma?

What I am saying is that the 10 beats per minute drop in max heart rate in well trained runners can be over ridden with the right training. That is where our real potential lies. This is the zone in which super fast times are run in ideal conditions. But nobody ever talks about it. There are some vague references to it in the research literature, but this is not well known.

Noakes says that the only really relevant treadmill test is the one which allows maximum speed at the end of a test that he and his colleagues designed. I am sure he is right and that when the best 5000/10000 runners do the last lap in 52 seconds, they are hitting a higher VO2 than normal. But how do you get a treadmill up to 29 kmh or whatever?

To achieve this finishing burst, there must be an extra recruitment of fast oxidative fibers. The weird thing is that they don't get out of breath. This is usuall explained by the regular crew of you know whats as being the influence of EPO injections. Well I don't use that method, or blood transfusions, and I know that zone. Presumably, because of low heat stress and there is less plasma to shift to the skin, it is easier for the circulation to deliver oxygen to the working muscles? With this you also get better oxygen economy because the faster pace allows more eccentric work in the muscles, allowing more speed for the same effort?

plateau or peak? wrote:

No Way wrote:

I almost had a stroke when I saw him type that physiologists didn't understand these basic concepts.

I'm going beyond basic here. Read a bit more carefully and you might see.

I know that your point is that the direct correlation of each of these relationships to running is difficult to measure, and that is true. It is also true that all of the factors influencing these relationships are difficult to determine. That does not mean that they are not well understood, it simply means that the human body is a ridiculously complex system. It is certainly possible to develop a model that includes all of these factors, the issue is that by the time you're done, your subject has gained a pound or taken a leak and now you have to start all over. You have to pick and choose the major factors and accept some variability.

No Way wrote:

Apigsheaven wrote:

Heart rate is basically the same thing. Dont overcomplicate things.

Heart rate and VO2 Max are not even close to the same thing

For running purposes they are basically the same. Knowing your VO2 Max does exactly what for a runner?

I guess you could argue that either one can help the runner define training zones. In that sense, knowing your VO2max provides a similar benefit as knowing your HRmax.

But in every other sense, they are clearly different things.

to yes sir...

Do you believe that there is value training at vVO2 max? If not, why not? If yes, wouldn't it help to know your vVO2 max?

to Apigsheaven:

OK, Joe's HR on a run is 150. What is his VO2 max? Bill's VO2 max is 67. At what heart rate does that occur? Tom's VO2 max is also 67. Does that occur at the same heart rate as Bill? Are you sure that VO2 max and HR are the same thing?

to plateau or peak?:

Do you have an exact quote from Noakes about what happens to a runner's VO2 when he is on a 52 last lap in a 5000 or 10000? And what makes you think that Mo Farah or Galen Rupp or anyone else is not "out of breath" when they close in 52?

There is benefit to training at high levels on intensity but knowing what your VO2 max is or what percentage you are at is irrelevant because there are other things such as RPE and heart rate that are much more easily monitored.. Say your VO2 max is 60 and you want to train at that level. You would need a metabolic cart. Its much easier to train at 90% or 85% of max heart rate.

to yes sir...

What I am saying is, suppose we use the definition of vVO2 max as the pace you could run for a 10 minute race. The little v in vVO2 max is for velocity or pace. The OP gave us his mile and 5k times, so you could figure out his 10 minute race pace pretty close. I know some people use 6 minute, 8 minute, 11 minute, or another duration race pace. You don't need a metabolic cart to figure this out.

Whatever your definition of vVO2 max, do you believe that there is value in training at vVO2 max? That is what I am asking, not whether the OP's running VO2 max is 45 or 55 or 65 or whatever.

To do it by percentage of max heart rate you would need to know his max heart rate. How do you like to test for max heart rate?

vo2 maxxxx wrote:

for a high school athlete simply running a 3200 will give them an accurate view of their Vo2 Max. 3200m. = 100% of Vo2 Max

Someone running a 3200 under 9 mins will be using a different percentage of VO2max than someone running 12 mins.

Not accurate at all.

The problem is that vVO2 max is theoretical. Basically VO2 max is just before onset of blood lactate accumulation OBLA. Someone's 3200m race pace would be sub VO2 max because you likely couldn't be anaerobic for the duration of a 3200 m race. If you use a met cart to calculate velocity or speed you run at Vo2 max you have a controlled environment where temperature, humidity, and wind resistance are controlled. You can't account for these variables in training when not on a treadmill. Max heart rate can be tested by progressive treadmill testing but it takes some time to get to your max HR. I don't see how getting so specific as to worrying about training at VO2 max would be any more helpful than max HR, RPE, or feel.

^^thank you^^

As a side note, I think you got some of the theory wrong. Considering VO2max is often equated to 11 minute race pace, and OBLA to 1 hour race pace, how can you claim "Basically VO2 max is just before onset of blood lactate accumulation OBLA"? They are not even close.And what does "be(ing) anaerobic for the duration of a 3200 m race" mean? VO2max is a measure of a peak oxygen throughput. It has nothing to do with the duration you can sustain being anaerobic (whatever that means).I mention these only for the sake of accuracy, but in fact, these things don't matter for training.While physiologists debate about subtle nuances and relative importance, it is straightforward to link approximate paces to these fuzzy parameters. For training purposes, close approximations are a good starting point, which can then be refined to account for individual differences.You run at LT paces to improve stamina. I don't know what LT is, but I know what LT pace is.You do interval training at near VO2max paces to improve speed. I don't know what VO2max is but I know its pace.You do long runs at near or below AeT paces. I don't even know what Aerobic Threshold is, but I don't need to if I know my marathon pace.We can also debate whether these paces are unusually interesting, or if we simply need a variety of paces in balanced doses, but popular coaches like Jack Daniels seems to have proven success building training plans around these paces.

yes sir... wrote:

The problem is that vVO2 max is theoretical. Basically VO2 max is just before onset of blood lactate accumulation OBLA. Someone's 3200m race pace would be sub VO2 max because you likely couldn't be anaerobic for the duration of a 3200 m race. If you use a met cart to calculate velocity or speed you run at Vo2 max you have a controlled environment where temperature, humidity, and wind resistance are controlled. You can't account for these variables in training when not on a treadmill. Max heart rate can be tested by progressive treadmill testing but it takes some time to get to your max HR. I don't see how getting so specific as to worrying about training at VO2 max would be any more helpful than max HR, RPE, or feel.

No Way wrote:

plateau or peak? wrote:

I'm going beyond basic here. Read a bit more carefully and you might see.

I know that your point is that the direct correlation of each of these relationships to running is difficult to measure, and that is true. It is also true that all of the factors influencing these relationships are difficult to determine. That does not mean that they are not well understood, it simply means that the human body is a ridiculously complex system. It is certainly possible to develop a model that includes all of these factors, the issue is that by the time you're done, your subject has gained a pound or taken a leak and now you have to start all over. You have to pick and choose the major factors and accept some variability.

Ok, let's pick that wonderful zone where we are running very fast but we aren't breathing hard, and we just keep going. Where is the discussion of that zone? I never hear it or read about it, but we all know it exists.

Just past your VO2 Max, because you body can't utilize more oxygen, you seriously begin to produce lactate that is not cleared by aerobic respiration, so while VO2 max and OBLA are different, they are intrictely related. Equating VO2 max to anyone's race pace at any time is just plain ridiculous.

yes sir... wrote, in part:

"Equating VO2 max to anyone's race pace at any time is just plain ridiculous."

OK, if you got Kenny B, Komen, Geb, El G, Morceli, and anyone else you want in there on the track at their peaks and said "11 lap race, $100,000 prize, winner take all" what would the approximate winning time be? What would you guess happens to each runner's VO2 at various points in the race?

If you want to control temp, humidity, and wind resistance, run it indoors and make it a 22 lap solo time trial. Use pacing lights or beepers or whatever you want if you choose to. Forget the met cart, use this portable bad boy:

http://www.cosmed.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=249&Itemid=174&lang=en

If you don't like 4400 meters, use 2400, 3000, 5000, whatever you want. What do you believe happens to each runner's VO2 at various points in the race/time trial/experiment?