Is this correct about the Training of Carlos Lopes

I understand it was Carlos's habit to eat a rare steak in an unusually short period time (two hours?) prior to an important race (e.g. The 1984 marathon in Los Angeles.)

Comments?

Let me profit the occasion to do an intro for all american runners and all people that posts here.

Since last threads about LT or AnT questions, they are very participated, i need to explain that in Carlos Lopes training we can´t say "tout-court" (strictly) that he did Lt runs - in american style - J. Daniels style or J- Keloog style or Tinman style. Effectivelly those runs he did they can be considered more "continue short runs" as Renato Canova calls them and i think that´s the name the italien style. We portuguese we call that CI (continuous and Intensive runs).

Despite Lopes never took split paces or final paces, for what i know they are runs in a zone in beetween 90-95-98% Race Pace Target Distance negative split style.

Lopes did that by his own initiative - more than his coach advise.

About the weekly frequence - your ask. I can´t answer you as i explain above. His career is too long with different training modulation - that to say to a weekly or month average this means nothing, and i´m no able to calcul that.

What i can say it that Lopes payed more and more attention to those "continue intense runs" as far as his career progresses and that he is changed from a 5000m to a 10000m/cross/road specialist to a marathon specialist.

Let me profit also the occasion simply to say that Lopes training and Lopes coach when he did buold the Lopes or Mamede or Aniceto Simoes specific workouts they took in consideration for their determination Race Pace, averege based in estimate Race pace as workout targets, and never exercise physilogic targets, bcause the physiologic targets, this makes no sense. Look, that for what i read Renato Canova uses the same. Of course Renato knows the physilogy bio-mecanics or biology principles and studies and investigate and analyse all that, but then he speaks about 95% Race Pace or 102%-105% race pace as workout defenition not " a VO2 workout" or a LT workout, what´s that a LT workout?

Finnaly let me profit the occasion to say to you (that i don´t know who you are really !) and also to reapeat to John Andrews (another recent nick name that Jonh kellogg posts) as it used to be Hadd or Hadd an actually that´s also Wello what i sayd before that you seems you don´t pay attention or you don´t understand.

LOTS OF TIMES - to train for a certain training quality or to a certain physilogic zone level, we need to train in a different pace than the quality or physilogic training level occurs. We may know that since Gresheler and Reindell, or since van Aaken. According to those training methods we train to improve in "interval training method - that of Gresheler" by running in a FASTER - thus different pace than Race Pace, and according to "LSD" we train SLOWER than Race Pace. That is called in my country "training sophistication". You see that´s like painting - Mr. Kellogg - ther were realists (those who try to paint the objects as they are really and expressionists or surrealists that want to produce an even strong impact (as reach their painting target) by painting different thata the reality perceived. I think that all those great american physiolist coaches they didn´t understand that yet.

This my idea that´s similar than Malmo idea "abnormalities".

You leave all in an averege society rules by science and yo don´t underatnd really how can we train LT in a different pace that that occurs, that´s what Lopes did. Thus you wrer surprised by Renato to a point that you doubt and start asking questions, because you are really courious Mr. Keloogg. Do you see my point?

Now asking about Lopes food habitts to BDR529 (?). Once again i don´t know who you are. I know a few Kellogg nicknames that he posts but i don´t know that one.

But once again let me ask.

Let me say first that i saw Carlos Lopes last monday in a Funeral cerimony of a past great portuguese runner called - Manuel Faria - a runner that among other achievements did win over the chec Emil Zatopec, the britain Gordon Pirrie, Chris Chataway and also the russian Vladimir Kuts.

Well. Lopes i don´t know about that steak story before the olympics. For those who do know or that they forgot Lopes did win the Los Angeles marathon Olympics - 20 years ago - August 12, 1984 - in Los Angeles hot and humid August weather - but that´s still an Olympic record 2:09 (!) that i doubt that will be broke.

But what i know is that Lopes eated tons of food you can´t imagine, Right after the hard workouts he drinked wine and did a dinner in the stadium he did the workouts, and after a while when he arrived in his home he dinner once again. Tons of food ! I never saw in my life - no one neither weight athlets or whatever - to eat so much food. Yes meat, pork, whatever.

One more detail about Lopes. Someone puts in question (i think that it´s wello or someone else, but that´s another Keloogg undercover - because he argues against himself and against other of their nicknames in several thread posts -

so i need to say that I saw several times all physio tests that Lopes did, and i confirm that according to scioence knowledge he is a ordinary/averege performer. Low max.VO2, low Max.Vo2 pace, air capacity, pulse rates whatever that it did exists as tests 20-25 years ago.

In that aspect Lopes was also a unique case, a great mystery. I know that there are coaches - nowdays - that they say: if i did train Lopes he will be even better thah he was, but i guess they are completly wrongi guess.

Actually, Mr. Cabral I am not John Kellogg. He has posted under the names "JK," "TG&P Oz," "Professor Utonium," and "Michelle branch fan."

John Andrews is not my real name, either. I do not use it on this type of message board where there are many strange individuals I would not want to meet on the street.

Other than these I do not know any others under which he posts. I simply posted article of his.

I asked Renato and yourself the question because I have always understood the Lactate Threshold to mean a steady, comfortably fast pace trained by intervals with short rest or a continuous run of 18-22 minutes.

I do not have as complete a knowledge of physiology as yourself or Renato, but I know something.

I would repost these articles but I once sent a large collection to you so I believe you have them already.

If I understand correctly, Mr. Cabral has said the physiological measurements are not important or relevant as compared to training at race pace.

Rather than LT runs, Carlos Lopes did negative split style continuous short intensive runs, withint 90-95-95% of target race pace, and paid more attention to these runs as his career advanced.

Lopes and Lopes coach etc for determination of training took into consideration race pace as workout targets -- and never physiologic targets.

This is because using physiologic targets would make no sense.

Training is based on Race Pace targets and percentage of Race Pace --, not vo2 or LT etc.

Carlos Lopes had very normal values for physiological measurements, nothing outstanding, yet his resistance at Race Pace made him Champion, ahead of those with greater measurements in a lab.

But a lab is not running.

First runners achieve. Then science makes some attempts to explain what happened.

Runners are like the horse that makes the cart move. The cart can say well the horse does this or the horse does that, but only the horse does anything. The cart never does anything on it's own, whereas the horse runs very well on it's own and even faster with no cart.

Running is an art, not a science.

CARLOS LOPES HAD A NATURAL INSTICNT TO KNOW WHEN TO ATTACK,IN RACES.HE COMPLETELY DESTROYED TREACY - SPEDDING IN LA. I HAVE WATCHED THAT RACE ON VIDEO MANY TIMES,THE GUYS STRIDE RATE WAS INCREDIBLE AROUND 35KM.ALSO I WAS AT THE TRACK MCGILL IN MONTREAL.CARLOS WAS THERE DOING 10X400M 60-63 SEC 200M JOG REC. AFTER EVERY 400M HE WOULD LOOK AT HIS WATCH CATCH HIS BREATH AND OFF AGAIN.THIS WORKOUT WAS DONE AFTER THE OLYMPICS,AND BEFORE THE CHICAGO MARATHON IN 84.HE TOLD ME HE RAN ABOUT 200-240KM FOR MARATHON TRAINING-160-200KM FOR 10KM.A TRUE CHAMPION ,NICE GUY AND YES HE LIKED HIS GLASS OF RED WINE,LIKE ANY OTHER PORTUGUESE.

JK doesn't post as John Andrews and hasn't weighed in on this thread. He does post sometimes as "stop the pigeon" so there is something to file away.

Dunnes

I subcribe all that you resuming. But 2 details i don´t agree completly.

One is that "science makes some attempts to explain what happened". This is mainly true in a historical point of view. Only after that Zatopec did WRs and Olymoic wins they focus on his training to try to understand his supremacy.

But science and all sciences/auxiliar sciences, actually they are the background and the support of any training method. This doesn´t mean that they need to take the "front line". The front line that´s TRAINING TECNIQUE.

In my opinion the direction is that one: first you know the training principles; then you try to know the individual that you train - his training profile - his talent; weak points/strong points; training past history - then you design a training schedule acoording a training method taking in consideration the individual and the target goal distance event. Later on, close to the terrain - you use "paces" as to define training zones. Pace that´s TIME and SPACE, the ultimate reality. All materialistic life that´s time and space. Motion that´s time and space really indeed in that ultimate try for a definition/measure. Race Pace that´s the pattern measure.

Second, all that debate about if running that´s an art and a science, that´s both. Science is no more than an empiric (based on experiences/tests/measures) systematized method, and art that´s the also a science by his tecnical side. Thus running that´s both.

The act of running (that´s an art) the act of training (that´s a tecnique/half way from science and art) and the training analysis (from training history to exercise physilogy) that´s science. All that´s all unite.

But when you are doing the act of training as a coach uses training method and training tecnique mainly (front line)yor mind that´s focus on "paces" training standards, defined workouts and not physilogic effects, at that moment don´t think too much about training physiology (second line interest in that context).

He also did post under the name of Hadd and many other nicknames more recently.

If the reason of not posting under his real name or he don´t reveal his own identity that´s they offend him, then Renato or myself or Tinman we never post no more.

You need to understand that a guy like Renato - so busy about training and concern about their runners, but he gets such a running passion, and he is an educator real a true teacher. thus he posts for free and with such a sincerity and such in an humble atitute that´s very rare among top coaches. The same with Timman that they offend several times, but their running loving passion and the compulsive atitude to help that´s so great that they keeps on posting.

what does it matter who we are, isnt such a forum about sharing information?

If i would need to talk about myself i would call my friends and if someone wants to express him/herself on the net i would suggest makefriendslovechat.com or whatever.

Antonio,

Gracias por la informacíon. Los esfuerzos de tú y las personas como ti (como Renato, Tinamn y más) haga este sitio necesario a usar.

También, ¿cómo está la aptidud de Rui Silva? ¿Crees que puede ganar una medalla la proxima semana?

Trackhead

Please, stop reply in castellan language, or do the translation in english. I know you want to learn spanish, but i also need to learn english a lot. Besides that´s not fair to write in spanish i guess, that´s a english site, despite spanish are more people that are spanish language natives in USA than english native language. But that looks like you are undercover something.

Rui Silva he goes to the Olympics but he is injuried. Since last indoor world champs that he ned to do a stomach operation that he delayed to be ready for the Olympics. Thus the injury it gets worst and worst to a point he needs to stop specific workouts, that´s the reason he did poor perfromances in last competitions.

The portuguese runners that will be in the olymopics in running distance are:

Joao Pires - 1:46 800m, a "B" qualifying.

Rui Silva in the 1500m, a 3:30 runner

Manuel Damiao - a young runner that did 3:34 recently. His is a "all terrain runner". he do crosses and road up to half marathon distance during the winter. he is no professional, he works as a fireman. That will be very good if he qualifies after the first heats, and will be a personal achievement if he will do the final.

Manuel Silva - a 8:19 in the steeple that´s the Portuguese record he did a few weeks ago. Despite his family name Silva, he is not relative to Rui Silva but relative (cousin) from both twin brother Castro´s - Domingos and Dionisio Castro. This runner that´s a strange runner because he is very very slow, his best 1500 that´s 3:56 and he wasn´t able yet to do the 5000m in sub 14:00. He do no speed quality really, but the steeple, fits very well for him. I used to do recover runs with him and he tells me that the 5000m that´s very fast for him, a such an intense pace. he also builds his capacity in winter road and cross runs. he did the final in the steeple 4 years ago in Sydney. No great achievement in Athens, i guess.

Alberto Chaiça in the marathon event - I´m his adviser since he start training for the marathon! 31 years old. That´s the last portuguese Paris 2003 World Champs. He surprises all portuguese experts coming in 4th place in WC with 2:09. When he starts the marathon in the ranking of the participants he was only the 47th. He did 3 altitudes stays recently - one in mexico city, second one in Font Romeu (france) and third one in south spain. He is in good shape really, but the Athens marathon that´s very hard, uphills, hot and humid. He did a 22.5 kilo test run in France recently and did 1:03, that means he is in good shape. But to fight Tergat and Adere and all the rest you see. This marathon that´s a russe roulette, you never know when you feel all right and some mileas ahed you are completly out.

Remeber what renato told us, that the best time record in Athens course that´s 2:12 ! Wish him luck !

[quote]X-RUNNER wrote:

Alberto Chaiça- He did a 22.5 kilo test run in France recently and did 1:03, that means he is in good shape.

[quote]

Excuse me. That´s not 22.5kilos but just 22kilos.

Antonio Cabral

thanks for the info, Antonio. I'll lay of the spanish

Mr. Cabral, Hadd was also not John Kellogg but John Hadd from Italy.

We all post under monikers of some sort. "Tinman" is of course not his real name, like "X-Runner" is not yours. IT is not of fear necessarily but simply because the Internet does not need to know every detail of each person.

X-Runner!

This same person ("to Mr. Cabral") asked in another thread about the training of Antonio Leitao. Do you have any information on his training? 1-2-3 method as well?

- Hector

Hector

Antonio Leitao, he ws a 13.08 5000m performer, and he did a silver medal in 1984 Los Angeles olympics.

Despite he didn´t train with Sporting team that includes Mamede (3:37NR/13:09/27:13WR), Aniceto Simoes (13:19NR in 1976 with 33 years old) and Carlos Lopes (13:16/27:16/2:07:12WR) among all trained by Mr. Mario Moniz Pereira, the dean of portuguese coaches Antonio Leitão also folowed what i call specifics "magic 1-2-3".

1=short reps faster than R.Pace (that´s speed really) and that can be also hill workouts;

2=medium/long reps close to Race Pace as Renato Canova defines by 98%-102% race Pace target distance; and 3="continue intense runs" as we call that, in an intense pace, but slower than Race Pace. Of course all training is supported by recover runs and pure aerobic runs, basic work. American call that "LT runs" or "AnT runs" or "Tempo runs" several designations.

This is no more no less than what Renato says by the 6 Paces when Renato says or similar to what Mr-Joe Rubio considers the "..the 4 areas of fitness" :

Renato Canova:

PURE SPEED (over 110 %)

SPECIFIC SPEED (110 - 90 %)

SPECIAL SPEED (90 - 80 %)

BASIC SPEED (80 - 65 %)

GENERAL SPEED (65 - 50 %)

REGENERATION (under 50 %)

Joe Rubio:

1. Aerobic conditioning.

Performed primarily through moderately paced sustained runs of 30-120 minutes at 55-75% VO2max. Long runs, double days, weekly mileage, etc.

2. Anaerobic conditioning.

Performed primarily through 15-25 minute efforts completed at 75-90% VO2max. Tempo runs at slightly slower than MP down to 10k pace.

3. Aerobic capacity.

Performed primarily through 2-8 minute reps at 90-100% of VO2max. 10k pace to slightly faster than 5k pace.

4. Anaerobic capacity.

Performed primarily through 30-120 second reps at better than 100% VO2max. 1500 pace or faster

But in my systematisation i consider the Basic Speed, I don´t include renato Paces as the "General Speed" and the "Regeneration" as specific paces so i resume that all to BASIC TRAINING, despite the interest to do the basic training all year round.

Antonio Cabral

fwrunco wrote:

JK doesn't post as John Andrews and hasn't weighed in on this thread. He does post sometimes as "stop the pigeon" so there is something to file away.

Fwrunco, is that really JK? Because I have seen posts by "stop the pigeon" and that guy seems pretty vulgar (i.e. not at all like JK) and does not post anything about training or anything.

It really seems nothing like him. Why does he not post under "JK" about training like he used to?

Yeah that's him alright. I guess its his alter ego. I think he quit posting as JK because he pretty much said all he had to say and felt like he was just repeating himself all the time and answering the same questions over and over. But I can't really speak for him so I don't know why for sure. Just guessing.