So basically 5:45 pace for 5-6 miles right?
So basically 5:45 pace for 5-6 miles right?
These are really only relavent for a slow twitch runner or someone with truly under-developed anaerobic system.
this is also why Daniels' Vdots are not a good way to train for the marathon.
You need to know (a la Hadd) what sort of relationship you have with all of your longer races.
Those who are more slow twitch tend to be better at the longer distances. If two guys can both run 17 minutes flat for the 5k it says nothing about how they acheived that time. Most likely the fast twitch guy ran 5:00, 5:30, 5:50 and :40 and was DYING at the end. The slow twitch guy ran perfect 5:30's and even picked it up the last .1.
Now the fast twitch guy could probably go out and hammer the Yasso 800's in 2:30-35. As long as he/she gets that rest, they can repeat the same time. But there is NO WAY that guy is going to run 2:30-35!
The slow twitch guy, although he can't run 2:30-35 800's probably CAN run 2:45-50's and then COULD be expected to run a 2:45-50 marathon without blinking an eye.
tempo fugit wrote:
A really stupid gimmick, in my opinion.
Agree. Highly unreliable "predictor".
This week I did this 17 mile long run (1:58:32)Sunday
Monday easy 6 miles
Tuesday 2 up and 2 down 8 x 1 mile with 3:00 recovery
My goal marathon pace is 6:18 and I hit these (5:45, 5:45, 5:40, 6:01, 5:56, 5:59, 5:57, 5:54) First three solo and last 5 with a slower buddy at his mile repeat pace.
Wednesday 4 miles easy
Thursday (9 miles in 58:11) 6:28 pace
Just from the looks of it am I on the right track to run a 2:45:00 marathon?
Just had this arguement with Mark Remy of Runner's World. Did 10x800 in 2:33.6 average, no chance I am in sub 2:40 marathon shape right now. You can see my workout write-up here http://www.roadkillracing.com
tempo fugit wrote:
ukathleticscoach wrote:Keep them going I'm going to send him this
Going to send who?
Lasso?
Who's Lasso?
Seeing as you don't even know the guy's name, I doubt he's going to be concerned with your opinions on the matter.
Lasso Virron (Fin). He beat Pre at the 72 olympics in the 5, also won the 10.
lease wrote:
Of course, this subject has been discussed many times over the years. For a long time the consensus was that these 800s were "necessary but not sufficient."
This is the correct answer. For your runner looking at a 2:50/3:00/3:10 marathon, NOT being able to do 800s in these times would show there's a ceiling related to their speed that is going to keep them from their goal.
However, hitting this workout does NOT mean they can just go hit the "equivalent" marathon. That's because the workout, especially with this ridiculous rest, shows no strength or endurance whatsoever. 8x800 at something like 10k pace with equal time rest is pretty weak for 5/10 training, and basically irrelevant to marathon training.
Precious Roy wrote:
It is a terrible marathon pace predictor. If your training has really been good, you may not feel good at all running 800s 30-50 sec per mile faster than your marathon pace.
I get your point, but would probably dispute the idea that "really good" marathon training wouldn't include a variety of speeds that would make the Yasso workout pretty do-able.
I realize people have different definitions of "really good" training for marathons...
I actually took the Yasso concept and turned it into a fartlek. Alternate 800 at MP and 800 at Yasso marathon time (i.e. 2:40 marathon goal, 2 min 40 sec 800). I did 5 mi of this and want to get up to 6. It is actually harder to keep the pace up on the recovery than to hit the fast intervals.
Ugh--this brings back memories! Working from Tom Osler's great little book ("Training for Distance Runners" or something like that), and running at slower paces than yours, I warmed up for about 10mins (en route) and then basically alternated ~3mins at marathon pace and ~3mins at (maybe) 3M pace.
You're right, great workout but keeping on pace in the "slow" parts was just a killer. I remember finishing the hour somehow, going into the locker room, and just sitting on a bench for a long time before I had the energy to stand up and open my locker.
Got me in pretty good shape, though. And it made me appreciate the "regular" rests in other interval work a *lot* more.
Bravo!!
This is the best trolling i've seen in years. 10/10!!!
All of you pretender trolls, take note - this is how you start the ideal troll thread.
Top Marks.
Roadkillracing wrote:
Just had this arguement with Mark Remy of Runner's World. Did 10x800 in 2:33.6 average, no chance I am in sub 2:40 marathon shape right now. You can see my workout write-up here
http://www.roadkillracing.com
Some guy down the track while I was coaching tonight by coincidence did 8 x 800m with 2 mins rec in low 2:40's he's 39 and is around the 3 hr range and is training for a marathon
The predictor is way out and as for people thinking a couple of session of Yasooo sessions is going to suddenly set them up for a marathon are dreaming. You need to do sessions week in week out to get anywhere
Another conversation with a 15:40 college guy out of college just joined my the hill reps last Thurs. Typical winter session he was doing in college, 6 x 1 mile 1 min recovery. This guy was training for 1500m and 5km and he's doing more than that yahoo session. One more question to him doubles? 'Yes'
Put that in your 'advanced' marathon guide, a 3 miler is puttting in more than your rag recommends
trollfan wrote:
Bravo!!
This is the best trolling i've seen in years. 10/10!!!
All of you pretender trolls, take note - this is how you start the ideal troll thread.
Top Marks.
No no, 1/10 for YOU.
ukathleticscoach wrote:
Some guy down the track while I was coaching tonight by coincidence did 8 x 800m with 2 mins rec in low 2:40's he's 39 and is around the 3 hr range and is training for a marathon
The predictor is way out and as for people thinking a couple of session of Yasooo sessions is going to suddenly set them up for a marathon are dreaming. You need to do sessions week in week out to get anywhere
Another conversation with a 15:40 college guy out of college just joined my the hill reps last Thurs. Typical winter session he was doing in college, 6 x 1 mile 1 min recovery. This guy was training for 1500m and 5km and he's doing more than that yahoo session. One more question to him doubles? 'Yes'
Put that in your 'advanced' marathon guide, a 3 miler is puttting in more than your rag recommends
you've really started coming unraveled here recently.
what is this incoherent drivel, anyway?
are you really that bad at reading and comprehension?
Here's the link to the original Yasso 800 article from Runners World. (Written by Amby Burfoot about some training Bart Yasso was doing)
Note, Yasso wasn't promoting them as a generic marathon predictor. He, as a non-speedy distance runner, was using them as a weekly speed workout along the course of his marathon training. For him he says that he wouldn't be in 2:45 marathon shape until he could do 10x800m in 2:45 with equal time rest.
So think about the audience: Runners World readers, who're probably mostly joggers wanting to run marathons. This isn't an unreasonable workout at all, and while maybe not the most productive, it is pretty simple and seems OK for the purposes Burfoot was putting forward. Burfoot promoted them as a simple workout for the "speed" portion of marathon training, and concludes the article (or almost concludes) by stating that the "rest of the time, just do your normal marathon training."
Good old Bart Lasso.
He is with Lunner's Lorld.
Have you ever tried running a series of 800 meter repeats while trying to lasso something/someone? Tougher workout than you might think.
you've really started coming unraveled here recently.
what is this incoherent drivel, anyway?
are you really that bad at reading and comprehension?[/quote]
Multi-tasking I'm doing my accounts job at the same time. In any case unlike you I would not spend half an hour straining your thick head writing 3 lines that add nothing to the discussion
'Note, Yasso wasn't promoting them as a generic marathon predictor'
Yes he was, although he did add a cop out clause
He specifically said 3:05 in the reps gives 3:05 marathon etc (how convenient). Either say something or don't
As a session its ok although not great but he touted it as a predictor and its not. 4 x 1 mile with 90 secs is a reasonable predictor for 5km because it has long reps, short recoveries and covers more than the race distance
Because of the long recoveries and not too long reps this Lasoooo session is wildly inacurrate. A guy in my group is 39 and just did it in low 2:40's on his own with only 2 mins jog recovery no way is he running anything below 2:55. I suppose if you have who runner who can't break 65 for 400m and is running 120 miles a week the session might work.
With short recoveries it would be a good session. If you're training for a marathon, short recoveries is all you need/want anyway.
Obviously they arent' a reliabel predictor, because, as the old saying goes: "When you get to 20 miles, you're halfway there"
Alternate version for the faster guys: "The race starts at 20 miles"
This, exactly. As a fast-twitch guy I could do this workout waaaay faster than I could do the marathon equivalent with conventional training. However, the ONE time I trained really properly for a marathon, which for me meant *losing* the ability to run fast (I stunk at a tune-up 5K a few weeks before), this would have been a very challenging workout. A slow-twitch guy needs to have the ability to run fast (for them) to run a good marathon, so the 800s may be more relevant.
The Hoff wrote:
These are really only relavent for a slow twitch runner or someone with truly under-developed anaerobic system.
this is also why Daniels' Vdots are not a good way to train for the marathon.
You need to know (a la Hadd) what sort of relationship you have with all of your longer races.
Those who are more slow twitch tend to be better at the longer distances. If two guys can both run 17 minutes flat for the 5k it says nothing about how they acheived that time. Most likely the fast twitch guy ran 5:00, 5:30, 5:50 and :40 and was DYING at the end. The slow twitch guy ran perfect 5:30's and even picked it up the last .1.
Now the fast twitch guy could probably go out and hammer the Yasso 800's in 2:30-35. As long as he/she gets that rest, they can repeat the same time. But there is NO WAY that guy is going to run 2:30-35!
The slow twitch guy, although he can't run 2:30-35 800's probably CAN run 2:45-50's and then COULD be expected to run a 2:45-50 marathon without blinking an eye.
I think this is mostly for fun, and for people who are in relatively good shape and want a basic idea of what their marathon goals should be. Obviously not for a super serious runner who has a better grasp on their ability and has more race experience.
that being said, the structure of this seems more like a 3k workout than a marathon workout.