Core workouts: Good or bad for distance runners?

just asking the question wrote:

oldhalfmileguy wrote:

Running alone will not build the muscles you need for running efficiently..

So the rule of specificity is pretty much hogwash?

Yup.

Practice does not make perfect it makes permanent. Most runners, especially long distance runners do not have good running technique.

You will not find a single top ranked college distance program or elite coach that does not incorporate in a large amount of core and stability work.

Notice the key word being core and stability, not just ab exercises. 10,000 crunches will not make you an Olympian, but a strong core and being able to handle your own body in space will make you a better athlete.

I have seen schools like Florida States women XC team warm up, and they do better stability and technique work than most sprint programs.

yup.... wrote:

Practice does not make perfect it makes permanent. Most runners, especially long distance runners do not have good running technique.

You will not find a single top ranked college distance program or elite coach that does not incorporate in a large amount of core and stability work.

.

Exactly. It's like religion. You don't know if it will help or not so you do it just to be safe. If the top team aqua jogged in an altitude tent it wouldn't be long before EVERY "top ranked team" was aqua jogging in altitude tents.

just asking the question wrote:

yup.... wrote:

Practice does not make perfect it makes permanent. Most runners, especially long distance runners do not have good running technique.

You will not find a single top ranked college distance program or elite coach that does not incorporate in a large amount of core and stability work.

.

Exactly. It's like religion. You don't know if it will help or not so you do it just to be safe. If the top team aqua jogged in an altitude tent it wouldn't be long before EVERY "top ranked team" was aqua jogging in altitude tents.

Except for the coaches that consistently recruit high 18-19min 5k grils that have no form and turns them to 16-17min runners with beautiful strides.. obviously did nothing

yup.... wrote:

Except for the coaches that consistently recruit high 18-19min 5k grils that have no form and turns them to 16-17min runners with beautiful strides.. obviously did nothing

Video proof along with results?

If we look at the research for traditional core training ( crunches and planks etc ) , it shows that there is very little evidence that it improves running performance.

The law of specificity is valid and these exercises work the core in a very dissimilar way to how the core works when we run.

When we run our spine rotates , bends sideways and tilts forward and back. A strong core will control these movements ,making the most of elastic energy to help running efficiency.

Exercises like the plank prevent movement.

How can training our spine to remain still help an activity where our spine is constantly moving.

Anyone who tells you a plank is a good core exercise for runners has very little understanding of what the core does when we run.

Exercises involving the dynamic movement of the body in rotational , sideways and forward and back willbe far better for the core. These should not be performed lying down. We run standing up so why done do our core exercises lying down.

In fact the American College of sports Medicine recommended that vertical core exercises as a far more effective way to train the core.

It's time we let go of planks , crunches and any other lying down exercise and started training our core specifically for running.

Maybe these elite core programs have something to them, I don't know. But every core program I've been involved in has been worthless. Aimlessly doing some ab exercises you read about on the internet for 5 minutes a day is not helping your running, nor is it really building your core.

FWIW, standard weightlifting is great for building core strength. Deadlifts, deep squats, pull-ups, and so on.

Core is how Salazar took Farah from being a career also-ran to double Olympic gold medalist.

Back in 1983 I showed vin lannana and Jim sapienza a vertical core workout that I had developed in Australia. It involved the use of dumbells and changing the foot/leg position to change base emphasis. Recent studies presented at the ACSM conference show this to be the newest

Innovation in training. I believe vin added it to a circuit done on the track.

Good.

Fluffy wrote:

You become a better distance runner by running, not core.

I so wanted this to be true.

I like to run. I don't like core workouts, and I particularly don't like weights. So I just ran, but it didn't work so well for me. When I got over 70 mpw my hip flexors were trashed at the end of every semi-long run, my right glute was sore all the time, and my right hip would pop during my stretching routine. This went on for six months! Yeah, I was setting PRs, but every race left me devastated. And then...

Due to a random back injury I had to start again at zero. Terrified of wrecking my back permanently, I began (SLOWLY) with core, yoga, weights, something every day, then kept all those things as I added on the miles. I also added a set of drills to my midweek workout. This training cycle is going much better. My hips are MUSCULAR now. (Sadly, I've gained five pounds of muscle. Also sadly, no six-pack for me.) I just got back up to 70 mpw and feel "solid" on every run.

Long story short: Last cycle my performance was limited by my core, and when my core got tired I was flirting with injury. This cycle my performance is limited by my legs, and when the legs get tired it's an excellent training day.

I'm a believer now. The little things matter. No shortcuts.

squats, dead lifts, etc can work the core if you know how to engage the muscles. Planks will help you learn what you're supposed to feel like when the core is firing. Didn't Dan John say something like everything is a plank (of course if it is done correctly). I wouldn't get rid of the plank yet but stop doing all those crunches. Earlier this Spring flotrack had some videos of Mo Farah doing some exercises. Many of the people on this board made comments that they looked useless but they were simple exercises done vertically that were helping him stabilize so he would maintain his form and power. Maybe some of you believe now.

I once did a repeat workout in which we could choose whatever repeats we wanted to add up to a full mile, but the rest had to add up to no more than seven minutes. We did a 4x400 with 1:40 rest. The last rep was intensely painful, but I noticed that my unconditioned biceps actually felt weak and sore as I barreled down the last 100M stretch.

I hypothesized later that my legs drained the energy from my upper body and actually made it sore just from keeping them slightly contracted. Of course this was a very informal observation, but I could say that keeping your upper torso fit and strong helps alleviate any energy needed to keep those unnecessary muscles from breaking down.

it does matter wrote:

How is core useless? Your upper torso needs support when you contact the ground. If your core is not able to stabilize the upper body, you will be forced to use additional energy to remain balanced.

Some people might overdo the training of their abs, but a functional core is a must for proper running mechanics.

Do you have any empirical evidence that:

(1) Failing to do specific core exercises results in a core that "is not able to stabilize the upper body"

(2) If your upper body is not "stabilized" then "you will be forced to use additional energy to remain balanced."

or

(3) "a functional core is a must for proper running mechanics."

?

Or are you just basically talking out your ass?

Thanks in advance.

Fluffy wrote:

Your upper torso will get stronger by running more and faster. You don't need to do core specific workouts to make it stronger. How many Kenyans have you seen do core?

A lot of them do. Also, Salazar has stated that a lot of Mo's finishing speed and strength over the last lap has not only come from tougher training but from his hours in the gym everyday. He says that a strong core is a must for stabilizing your upper body as it works in conjunction with your legs. Not to mention hip strength is also affected by core work

Despite what people think the core does NOT stabilise the upper body. It controls the movement of the spine and pelvis, it loads eccentrically in three planes , sideways, rotationally and forward and back. It then uses the stored energy to help propulsion.

Planks are a waste of time. Here's why

In a plank your arms don't move, your legs dont move, your spine doesn't move, and you hold that position for 30 seconds or more. You do this in horizontal position .

In running your spine and hips move in three different directions, your arms and legs move and you are vertical.

The two are nothing alike so strength gained in one won't transfer to the other.

As I have said previously there is very little research to support the notion that traditonal core exercises help running performance.

Core strength is important but almost everyone trains it in ways that won't help your running.

Dynamic three dimensional movements that load the core eccentrically and performed in a vertical position are far more effective because they train the core specifically for what happens when we run.

Just to make a point understood, the notion that we must hold out spine stable when we run is incorrect. Our spine bends , rotates and flexes with every step we take. If it didn't we would be far less effective as runners. So why do we train our core by teaching it to prevent spinal movement. It makes no sense.

Mile27 wrote:

Dynamic three dimensional movements that load the core eccentrically and performed in a vertical position are far more effective because they train the core specifically for what happens when we run.

I'm a believer in strong core and have done a lot of work with the traditional stuff and felt it was helpful, but....

I am also a big believer in learning new ideas so can you direct me on these dynamic three dimensional movements you speak of?

Thanks.

Ditto. Would love to see what these 3-D movements look like.

Mile27 wrote:

... In a plank your arms don't move, your legs dont move, your spine doesn't move ... In running your spine and hips move in three different directions, your arms and legs move ... The two are nothing alike so strength gained in one won't transfer to the other.

...

Just to make a point understood, the notion that we must hold out spine stable when we run is incorrect. Our spine bends , rotates and flexes with every step we take. If it didn't we would be far less effective as runners. So why do we train our core by teaching it to prevent spinal movement. It makes no sense.

What makes no sense is to think that a muscle trained statically won't be able to make any contribution dynamically. What also makes no sense is to equate "stable" with "rigid" or "motionless".

I don't do planks, but I do squats. Since squats are "nothing" like running, please explain to me why I am wasting my time.

it does matter wrote:

Pascal Dobert has been helping Schumaker's guys with their core since they were at Wisconsin. Seems to be working out pretty well for their training group.

The routine is pretty intense too. Focuses on a wide range of both movement and isometric exercises.

Maybe they should drop it so they stop setting national records...

Yeah, Sol and Bairu had great years.

it does matter wrote:

How is core useless? Your upper torso needs support when you contact the ground. If your core is not able to stabilize the upper body, you will be forced to use additional energy to remain balanced.

Some people might overdo the training of their abs, but a functional core is a must for proper running mechanics.

Check out some of Vern Gambettta's suggestions for balance and postural alignment as it pertains to core training.

Best training you can do for a functional running core: RUNNING.

Good mileage at an appropriate variety of paces (aka training to RUN), and especially hills with good form, are all any distance runner needs.