14 Weeks to get a Sub-17 5K...help me.

BR wrote:

I need strength. I'm sick of out-kicking college girls and masters runners 400 meters from the finish line. This is stupid and has just got to stop.

I'm a masters runner and you won't out kick me. That's because I finish about a minute in front of you.

Took a bit of nosedive last week because I was traveling - and only managed around 30 miles of running...and suffered through some posterior tib issues thanks to walking around in some sandals that screwed up my feet.

Feeling great now, and I've racked up 22 miles so far this week, with paces around 7 flat.

Question time. My 10K race is this weekend. I do not plan on tapering for it - so my legs will not be 100%. With a 17:35 PR coming almost a month ago, what time should I aim for in this 10K? If a true tempo, what pace?

Thanks.

How hot was it for the 5k? How hot will it be for the 10k?

Working backwards off your post - if it's a true tempo and you don't plan on racing @ all - 38:30ish (6:11s). But if you're anything like me, you won't be able to not race a little and that won't hurt you long term. I would shoot for 38:00 (6:06s) if you're simply treating it as a tempo. Come through 5K in 19:00 and see how you feel. I suspect you'll be fine (for 8K or so) and even if you're hurting a touch from the training week, the gutcheck will be good for you.

Now, if you're truly racing it, I think 37:00 is more realistic. You have to decide before the gun goes off how you're treating it though.

I like McMillan's calculator for rough training/tempo/race pace suggestions. Although everyone is different, it at least gives you a baseline. Good luck.

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/calculator

The 5K's I ran a few weeks back (17:35 + 17:41) both hit 80 degrees by the time I finished. Saturday will be high of 89 degrees - but the race is at 9am.

NJK&YU wrote:

How hot was it for the 5k? How hot will it be for the 10k?

Hey thanks. Let's go with 6:10's the whole way. If I feel good, I'll try to pick off a few people in the last mile.

Nothing wrong with 6:10s for a practice race even if the race will end at 8x degrees.

However, you will get the same amount of training benefit from running 40:00 as you will from 38:00 just from different sides. The point of a tempo (at 40:00) is to teach your body to run fast without pain or to push the pace up you can run without pain up for next time. This is the exact opposite purpose of an untapered practice race (at 38:00) which is to teach you toughness and to hang on for 38 minutes.

Ran the 10K today - well, actually I cut out at 5.6 miles to avoid trouble because I bandited the race. I would have placed second.

The pace was 6:18, felt very easy. No surging, kicking, etc. Just very steady.

Closing in on another 70 mile week.

Recap of what has happened so far:

Week 1: 6-11-12/6-17-12 - 71.32 miles

Week 2: 6-18-12/6-24-12 - 29.26 miles (on vacation)

Week 3: 6-25-12/7-1-12 - 70.0 miles (including 5.6 mile tempo at 6:18 pace)

Week 4: 7-2-12/7-8-12 - 42.16 miles (including 3 mile tempo at 6:13 pace in 90 degree heat, on vacation again)

Week 5: 7-9-12/7-15-12 - 25 miles so far this week, haven't ran today. Tempo and hill work, and long run of 12-13 miles planned for the remainder of the week.

thanks for updating.

I too am interested in seeing how you do. Like you, I was stuck in the mid-17s for a long time. The thing that made the difference for me was lots of long track intervals: 1000s, 1200s, 1600s at 5K pace with short rest. They hurt like hell but they will get you in great shape. You may find that you need to reduce your mileage when focusing on these in order to run them really well; I run 70-100mpw when marathon training but could barely do 50mpw when focusing on the 5K because these workouts beat me up so much.

As others have pointed out, you definitely have speed, but are lacking in stamina, so the tempo runs for you are a great idea. You should be able to do them around 6-flat pace if you are in 17:00 shape. Keep training hard and you'll get it, dude!

PS- if it means anything, for the longest time my goal was 16:59 and I thought I would never, ever reach that time. It seemed impossible. Then I was able to sneak under in one of my last races of the season, and in the years since then have lowered my PR to 16:00. And I am a slow-twitch marathoner type, so if I can do it, you can definitely do it!

I think you are right in you assessment of getting those tempos (unforced) into the 6:00 flat range:

http://fleastcoastrunners.com/Files/Tempo_Runs.html

Looks like we are bit of the opposite in terms of what type of runners we are. Marathoner vs. Miler. I actually did do a lot of 1000's, 1200's, etc, during the winter and just couldn't improve doing solely that. It essentially made me pretty good at the 12x400 workout...if that makes any sense.

I sometimes question if a 6 mile tempo is enough...but then I read something from Daniel's below:

"A tempo run is a steady, controlled run that should last about 20 minutes at threshold pace. A steady intensity of effort is important. Going too fast on a tempo run is no better than going too slow, and neither is as beneficial as running the proper pace. You could perform a longer-than-20-minute tempo run, but 20 minutes has been shown to produce positive results, and it will leave you relatively fresh for the next day's training."

Wouldn't more TEMPO equal more STAMINA?

My coach always separated tempo and threshold runs as they do slightly different things, I think thats the idea Jack Daniels is getting at here.

I find that 20 minutes of tempo running isn't enough for me. Usually, wen 5K training, I will do at least 4 miles of tempo pace in a workout, and often more like 6. I like to break them up, too, such as a 2x 3 miles or 3-2-1. I personally need to spend at least half an hour to really feel the effects of a tempo workout; otherwise it just feels too easy (or I want to push the pace).

You definitely are on the right track that you need to introduce new training stimuli in your program, and to focus on your weaknesses, so really I wouldn't worry too much about the specifics of the tempo runs; just making it a point to do them, and do enough that you're seeing the benefits, will probably give you an extra edge.

Unfortunately, only 51 miles last week including a 10x45 second hill workout and a 6 miler at 6:25 pace. No long run, unfortunately

Wrapped up my last week of vacation and travel so now I've got more time to run.

Did a very hilly threshold 5x1000 in a cemetery today at 5:55 pace in 100 degree heat...didn't push it.

Bumping for an update:

7-16-12/7-22-12 - 64 miles / the tempo run I did this week was 4 miles at 6:11 pace. The other workout was 10 minutes of hill reps.

7-23-12/7-29-12 - 71 miles / Tempo'd a 10K race at 6:10 pace. Did 12 miles the day before race.

8K tempo run/race this weekend. Will probably go out conservatively and start pushing hard at the 21 minute mark to see how well I can close.

I would integrate some of the workouts. So instead of doing just long workouts, assuming you are going 2 per wk do what at say 10km pace and the other at 1 mile/5km pace

It depends on the individual though. The aim of doing the faster stuff earlier on is not just to get your pace up, it's more that doing faster stuff really activates your body into improving. Bear in mind I'm not talking really fast stuff with long recoveries. At the same time I would keep your longer reps going for longer rather that dropping them all in later wks. Basically your plan but with a bit of a mix and match

You can improve a lot in 6 wks so you have plenty of time to achieve your goal. You do however need to get some race in before your goal race. I would try and get in a 5, 10km and ideally shorted than 5km race (if you can't do a 2 mile time trial)

I would also do less of a taper. However you can't really offer great advice remotely as every runner is different and you seem to have a pretty good plan away. 28-30 seconds in a 15x200 workout is not really a 5km indicator but it shows you will have no problem with the pace of a sub 17km and could carry on to run a lot faster than that

One last thing add a few slow short revovery runs don't do all steady runs at same pace. If you feel an injury come on don't be scared to miss a couple of days

Good luck

These are workouts that I have on my log - after the 8K tempo/progressive/race this weekend. Keep in mind that I plan on racing 3 or 4 more 5K's after my goal race on 9/16.

8-6-12/8-12-12

Workout 1:

4-5 mile tempo

Workout 2:

2x2000 (I-Pace)

2:00 jog recoveries

2x400 (R-Pace)

1:00 jog recoveries

3 (w/c)

8-13-12/8-19-12

Workout 1:

4x200 (R-Pace)

1:30 jog recoveries

5x400 (R-Pace)

2:30 jog recoveries

4x200 (R-Pace)

1:30 jog recoveries

Workout 2:

3x1600 (I-Pace)

2:00 jog recoveries

8-20-12/8-26-12

Workout 1:

4m Tempo

4x200

Workout 2:

Daniels' 800 meter runner workout.

Workout 3:

5x1200 (I-Pace)

2:00 jog recoveries

8-27-12/9-2-12

Workout 1:

10-12 x 400 (1:00 recoveries)

Workout 2:

6-8x1000

2:00 jog recoveries

9-3-12/9-9-12

Workout 1:

3m Tempo

4x200

Workout 2:

Daniels' 800m Meter Runner workout

Workout 3:

8x800 (I-pace)

1 minute jogging recoveries

9-10-12/9-16-12

Race week.

Thoughts on this plan? Please advise.

My concern - which it sounds like you may be addressing - is all your runs this week were in a fairly narrow pace range - 6:58-7:46. I recommend your easy/long days be slower & your shorter/harder days be faster. As a coach of HS kids, I'm am starting to learn the real benefit of making the hard days hard - but not 100% effort - and making the easy days easy. Also seeing the value of mixing it up in one workout, i.e. long tempo/progression + hill sprints, or cruise intervals + strides.