RE: Sub 2:20 marathon guys - what was your training like?

Bump...for those of you who have run under 2:20 what races or workouts did you "know" that you were in 2:20 shape?

In workouts I could cover 20-30 miles in a day and not be that tired, while racing 15-20 miles at 5:10 pace.

Igy

I ran my PR 2.22.09 twice! , in the same race Stockholm marathon that was one of the worlds most difficult marathons with the Western Bridge twice uphill . The only thing that I did wrong to not break 2:20 was that I did my tempos too slow, 3.15 min/ km instead of 3.08 min/km. And I only ran around 55 miles per week, but that is just perfect to reach your optimal performance. Don`t need more mileage.

The Hansons weren't very scientific about things....at least when I was there. 10 day cycle was rough and not set in stone, but we for sure would not do a hard 20-miler every single week. Sometimes there would be a "Medium long run" 16- miler mid-week (much like a Pfitzinger Marathon plan) that we would hammer. Most of the 20-mile long runs would be done in less than 2 hours and we'd usually have miles 15-18 be "miles at MP" which meant we'd basically go as hard as possible. I've detailed our whole Boston Marathon training segment in my poorly written memoir "Running For The Hansons" All the faster workouts were simply based on " '5' or '10' seconds per mile faster than goal MP for things like 3 x 3 miles or 5 x 2miles. When you think about it scientifically for a sub 2:20 marathoner it just so happens that "10 seconds a mile faster than goal MP" can be very close to half marathon race pace...which is close to Lactate Threshold. When I ran my 2:16:52 PR I was coming off a whole winter of 10km-half marathon racing. So we did club xc in Dec. (a disaster for me), but slowly we built up enough speed and aerobic power to knock out a 1:04:32 half marathon PR in Feb. After that it was more a matter of "extension" training with consistent 115-120mpw and the longer repeat stuff as well as long hard runs. When I ran 2:19:50 earlier this year in Houston I wasn't even close to hitting a lot of workouts (coming off of mountain slog ultras and training at altitude here in Boulder) but I did make sure to hit a 2 x 5-mile (well 8km) at sea level about 3 weeks before a race and go sub 5:12 pace (with a short 5-min. rest). I probably messed around with too many "fartlek/timed interval" workouts and didn't hit up the track enough...the legs have really been lacking in flat-road-track speed since doing ultras... For me a sub 2:20 marathon (I've run 6) usually takes a peak of up to 120 miles a week at least and a few "hard" long runs where the average pace is around 6:10/mile or faster for a 20-23 miler, but some miles are down closer to MP (or at least sub 5:35 pace). The other element is some sort of rough "Vo2max pace work/intensity"....usually more like mile repeats (i.e. 5 x 1600m) or something like 8-10 x 1km closer to current 10km race pace. You do this for leg turnover (as well as strides) but also to boost the thresholds. I call them "Running Economy" workouts because it is much like a 10km runner doing lots of 400m repeats to build speed/efficiency at a couple notches faster than goal race pace.

Sage, why don't you just run baby? Screw science. Sometimes I run three-four long runs in a week of 16-20+ miles just because I feel like it. Other times I run a hard mile hilly fartlek run that was only going be ten miles that I extend into fifteen just because I feel good. Just run baby.

Sand Dunes wrote:

Sage, why don't you just run baby? Screw science. Sometimes I run three-four long runs in a week of 16-20+ miles just because I feel like it. Other times I run a hard mile hilly fartlek run that was only going be ten miles that I extend into fifteen just because I feel good. Just run baby.

Just run without your brain is not a good choice. Run smart and with your brain, hehe!

" The Hanson`s weren`t really scientific about their marathon training" Well , that`s the reason why they never will train a world class marathoner! ;)

In response to the workouts, here are some good milestones to try and achieve with no taper and weekly mileage of at least 85 miles.

- 24 miles at 5:35ish

- 16 miles at 5:20

- 8 x 1 mile w/ 1 min rest avg under 5:00.

Mike Deren wrote:

In response to the workouts, here are some good milestones to try and achieve with no taper and weekly mileage of at least 85 miles.

- 24 miles at 5:35ish

- 16 miles at 5:20

- 8 x 1 mile w/ 1 min rest avg under 5:00.

I am sad to say it buddy….but you are total out of control! ;)

>> I've detailed our whole Boston Marathon training segment in my poorly written memoir "Running For The Hansons"

You always disparage "Running with the Hansons", but I found it to be a good read. It gives a real view of training life of an elite athlete and was interesting. Not sure what more you could have done to make it better.

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Sand Dunes wrote:

Sage, why don't you just run baby? Screw science. Sometimes I run three-four long runs in a week of 16-20+ miles just because I feel like it. Other times I run a hard mile hilly fartlek run that was only going be ten miles that I extend into fifteen just because I feel good. Just run baby.

Just run without your brain is not a good choice. Run smart and with your brain, hehe!

Under the heading of "Stuff I Learned in Grad School But No Longer Can Recall Where I Left the Specific Source" I'd list the idea that using one's brain is not nearly as simple and straightforward as is generally believed. I studied the process of intuition for a while. It's not some New Age kind of thing, well lots of people make it so, but it's actually a pretty sophisticated and useful process. There is a difference between knowing and awareness. Everyone knows loads of stuff that they aren't aware of knowing but we can get fleeting glimpses of those things at times and at other times are guided by that unacknowledged knowing. That's basically what intuition is and it gives us access to lots of useful information that we can't access directly. (It has obvious pitfalls but this post will be long enough as it is.)

The point is that using your brain to train can involve working out specific paces, distances, etc. and being analytical. But using your brain to train can also mean having a feeling about what is and isn't good to do which results from this store of largely inaccessible information that you possess. That too is using your brain. It's the method of using your brain that Cerutty tried to teach his athletes to do.

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

" The Hanson`s weren`t really scientific about their marathon training" Well , that`s the reason why they never will train a world class marathoner! ;)

Desi Linden winning Boston wasn't good enough for you? Very classy, by the way. Good coaches don't bash other coaches without good reason. Further proof of your poor professionalism on display.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Good morning,

For me it was 1973-1974. Double workouts Monday through Saturday, once Sunday. High mileage was about 150, with average around 110 per week. Igloi type interval training Monday and Wednesday, with shorter tempos sprinkled in. Saturdays typically featured races or repetitions, large sets of 400s, for example 4 x (4 x 400m @ 62-63 / 200m easy) with 400m between sets. The Igloi interval days featured two training sessions of repetitions, where the daily volume was 20-26 miles. These were the critical days, where volume was marathon specific with speeds exceeding 2:20 pace. In hindsight, there was probably a more effective way to accomplish the goal, I am certain.

Igy

Interesting, what other workouts did you do? So, just a bunch of mileage and twice a week do some high volume short rep workouts?

Joe Douglas was the coach of the Santa Monica Track Club. Igloi type intervals in large blocks of various distances. Joe added one very significant twist of tempo runs before and after large blocks of interval training. Usually a 30:00 tempo at 5:30-6:00/mile on the road, back to the track for 1 1/2 hours of various intervals then followed by another 20:00 tempo run probably closer to 6:00/mile. This is what I recall from 44 years ago.

Igy

2:18 guy here

Monday: 12 mile run (6:00 pace)

Tuesday: 11 mile run (5:50 pace)

Wednesday: 6 mile morning run (6:30 pace) // 10 mile afternoon run (6:15 pace)

Thursday: 9 mile run (6:00 pace)

Friday: 13 mile trail run (7:15 pace)

Saturday: 12 mile run (6:15 pace)

Sunday: 22 mile run w/included fartleks OR ran as a decreasing pace run (6:00 pace or faster)

MPW: 95

In the year before I ran 2:18 in my debut (2017-18), I only ran a "stand alone" workout once a month (thresholds, tempos, intervals, etc.). I also found it extremely helpful to run many of my easy and/or long runs with a large group of people with similar goals to myself (in my training group of 5 people, 2 have hit OTQ for 2020 and the other 3 should). That support network helped to keep me motivated and accountable since I lacked any kind of formal coaching. I also ran at mild elevation (4,000'-5,000') and NEVER ran any road runs above 6:45 pace.

To top it all off, I ran 2:18 while only 2 years removed from being a 31:39 10K DIII runner...

Thanks for all of the great input, would like to hear more. Sage, thanks for detailing your training and providing some insight, even with Coach JS trying to sell snake oil. Just curious, did Hanson's ever adjust paces for the humidity and heat of a midwest summer?

wonder how fast coach JS would have been if he ran mega miles

wiz khalifa wrote:

wonder how fast coach JS would have been if he ran mega miles

In fact I did! But then I read about Jack Daniels and his EXACT paces and just trained 6 sessions per week and ran faster then ever before. ;)

- The Wizard -