Pretty sure there have been a few Kenyans who went from non-runners to world class in a year.
John Ngug saw one of his neighbours win a race and thought he could do that as well and won World Cross the next year.
James Koskei did the same thing when he was in his early thirties. Saw a neighbour win money and buy half the countryside and went out and did the same thing the next year.
You guys have no idea how talented these guys are.
Forget all that lifetime base crap as well.
Lone Lobo wrote:
Pretty sure there have been a few Kenyans who went from non-runners to world class in a year.
John Ngug saw one of his neighbours win a race and thought he could do that as well and won World Cross the next year.
James Koskei did the same thing when he was in his early thirties. Saw a neighbour win money and buy half the countryside and went out and did the same thing the next year.
You guys have no idea how talented these guys are.
Forget all that lifetime base crap as well.
Why should we forget "all that lifetime base crap"?
Your examples can't be taken seriously without knowing the athletic history of those you mentioned.
Chances of people remembering/publicizing stories of amazingly talented runners being discovered and becoming great overnight = high.
Chances of people remembering/publicizing stories of mediocre Kenyans taking up running and never achieving anything = low
Chances of letsrun poster not understanding basic logic and/or ignoring obvious selection bias = 100%
SUCK IT GOD
GOD> CANOVA
excellent foresight.
Concerning the who is a"better" argument Shorter or Hall one ought to look at how athletes from different era's stacked up when compared to their contemporaries.
While Hall is faster over the Marathon distance than Shorter they are not even in same league when using the criteria of peer comparison. Here are Shorter's world rankings.
10k 1970-2 /72-5 / 74-5 / 75- 2
MAR 1971-1 / 72-1 / 73-1 / 74 -2 / 76 -2
Ryan Hall has never been ranked in world top 10
Times are the only base of comparison, Shorter wouldn't ever crack the top 10 in this era either.
The marathon is a lot more competitive than it was in Shorter's day. When he was racing, the most talented guys were still on the track. Today they're in the marathon.
Fair point but one also has to consider that it would probably take a bit of time for Hall to improve to be good enough to train with these Africans EVERY day
Ho Hum wrote:
The marathon is a lot more competitive than it was in Shorter's day. When he was racing, the most talented guys were still on the track. Today they're in the marathon.
Implicit in your statement is that Shorter would train & prepare just as he did 35 years ago yet the runners of today would avail themselves of current technolgies, training improvements and support provided.
Don't buy it.
I place great amount of weight on the commitment, determinationn & heart of an athlete that cannot be reduced to statistical measurements.
Measurements in sport can best be achieved by how they did against one's contemporaries of the era. Shorter did very well, thank you.
Would the current crop, with Shorter's limited resources & support and lack of $ motivation be comparable in the 70s & 80s.... Difficult to determine, but don't think so.
Enough said!
My statement has nothing to do with Shorter, only the quality of the athletes he'd face were he active today. The talent pool in the marathon is much greater than it used to be, as there's less money in track and more on the roads.
Would he run faster today? Sure, he'd have better competition, moderately better training, and better pacing. I think 2:06 would be totally reasonable. Would he ever run 2:04? No. His 10k best is at a slower pace than today's half marathon WR.
Ho Hum wrote:
My statement has nothing to do with Shorter, only the quality of the athletes he'd face were he active today. The talent pool in the marathon is much greater than it used to be, as there's less money in track and more on the roads.
Would he run faster today? Sure, he'd have better competition, moderately better training, and better pacing. I think 2:06 would be totally reasonable. Would he ever run 2:04? No. His 10k best is at a slower pace than today's half marathon WR.
Wouldn't his 10k improve too, with modern training, etc?
I oppose the idea that Ryan Hall should train with Kenyans in order to have people that can 'push' him.
Many athletes can push themselves just fine.
Training right is rarely about just running your guts out trying to beat the other dude in a workout.
What are the advantages to running and training in Kenya?
There are very few I think.
Hall should really consider joining RC's athletes for training. After all, these are the athletes that work so hard, "EPO and CERA can't work with them". They are completely clean and would be fantastic workout partners!
http://athleticsillustrated.com/interviews/renato-canova/
CK: You mentioned drugs. There seems to be so much suspicion from the public with many athletes and that suspicion seems to be pervasive through all countries. Do you feel that drugs are still a major issue in endurance sports?
RC: Also if I know there are drugs able to increase the ability to transport oxygen, I continue to think these drugs, like EPO or CERA, can’t work with the top African athletes. I don’t have any proof about this, but I have kinds of proofs that people looking at the effects of doping don’t have. The proof I have is very simple: I have many athletes between the best in the World, with some world record holders, AND THEY ARE COMPLETELY CLEAN. I can put my hands on fire they are clean. NOT ONE OF THEM ASKED ME DURING THEIR CAREER FOR ANY SUPPORT, LEGAL TOO. It was not part of their mentality to look for any type of aid.
I believe Mr. Hall will remain in California and be coached by email. If he would go to Kenya, that would be a great sign that he is serious. It would be a big culture shock though, especially with the diet, although that may be a good thing.
I think Hall is not serious, and that nothing will come of this.
Jon Ulm wrote:
I believe Mr. Hall will remain in California and be coached by email. If he would go to Kenya, that would be a great sign that he is serious. It would be a big culture shock though, especially with the diet, although that may be a good thing.
Interesting point.
I remember a video last year about one of his training runs in a big marathon buildup and he went home into the kitchen...he had jugs and jugs of protein stuff and all that. It'd take a whole suitcase on its own to truck that stuff to Iten.
The real question is - will Hall be desperate enough to move to Kenya when Dathan R overtakes him as the best American in 2013 while still doubling with the 10000? ;-)
I'm find myself no more impressed by O'Connell. He is working with a large pool of talented and hungry kids. His system, weekly training schedule, etc. appear to be much more rigid with a classical Kenyan "symmetrical" weekly schedule as Renato would call it. It's one thing to set up a system, put everyone into the system and see who happens to thrive under it, as opposed to learning to adapt and find the nuances that wring out that extra 2-3% out of an already exceptional athlete. Renato has many times stated that he has to adapt training plans up to 50% from the original plan during a training phase. This shows a knowledge and willingness to adapt the program to fit the athlete, not the other way around.
[quote]agip wrote:
Hall has said time and again that he wants to train by himself, not with a group. I think he means it.
Whether he would be a 2:03 guy if he moved to Iten, who knows.
He has said that he has a small group of advisors - for all we know, Canova is one of them.
bigger point is, he doesn't have a 'I will do whatever it takes to win a medal' attitude. For better or worse.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
+1 on this thought!