I ran Boston. The tailwind definitely helped. It was worth at least 3 minutes.
I ran Boston. The tailwind definitely helped. It was worth at least 3 minutes.
No, it should not be the WR. The rules for setting a WR in the marathon were set a long time ago, and it requires the start and finish to be within a certain distance and altitude difference.
It doesn't mean Mutai and Mosop aren't good. Of course they are. It doesn't mean that those times aren't good. Of course they are. It doesn't mean that Mutai and Mosop are not WR-quality athletes. For all we know, if they were in today's race, they could have challenged the WR today also.
But Mutai's time should not count as the WR.
OP misspelled "Kenyan's"
If canova were right we should see one of these guys run a 2:01 these days since Boston is a tough course and the wind was not a factor.
Under Ultra wrote:
Renato Canova was right, these Kenyans can run the WR anytime, anyplace, and when Mutai won Boston in 2h03'02, he said it wasn't because of the tailwind/downhill, that these fools were ready.
Congratulations, Canova, for being right on this issue. Makau proved everyone wrong!
Under Ultra,
I agree with you.
as I said after Boston, the 2:03:02 broke through a major mental barrier, given the number of sub 2:05 and 2:06s that had been run in the past few years, and that would mean that we would see other, legit 2:03's in the near future, probably this year. So we did. This wr will not last long.
the smartest letsrunner wrote:
runn wrote:The WR is 2:03:02. End of story.
No, it isn't. End of story.
NOBODY questioned Joan Benoit's Boston time from back in the 80's.
So, yes it is- end of story.
jjjjjjjjj wrote:
as I said after Boston, the 2:03:02 broke through a major mental barrier, given the number of sub 2:05 and 2:06s that had been run in the past few years, and that would mean that we would see other, legit 2:03's in the near future, probably this year. So we did. This wr will not last long.
Agreed, I think we could see it go down as early as Frankfurt (Kipsang) or Chicago (Mosop). There are so many marathoners at the top right now who I feel are capable of running <2:03:38 that I think all it will take is another day with good weather and good pacing like there was today in Berlin and in Boston. Heck, if Berlin had had a deeper field (it was essentially just Makau vs Haile from the outset) we may have even witnessed a very competitive race today.
runn wrote:
the smartest letsrunner wrote:No, it isn't. End of story.
NOBODY questioned Joan Benoit's Boston time from back in the 80's.
So, yes it is- end of story.
yeah fairytale
Ice wrote:
You have a very loose definition of "prove". If Ocsar Pistorius runs 42.06 seconds for the 400, and then LaShawn Merritt comes out and runs 42.31, does that "prove" that Pistorius's blades don't provide an advantage? Because that's basically your logic.
It proves it because people said Boston wasn't legit because it was way under Geb's world record. Well guess what, Makau just smashed it, proving that 2:03:02 isn't some way assisted time that people were and are making it out to be
If Geb hadn't dropped back and Makau could have had some competition in the last 12k, the WR would be 2:03:00. He had a good bit left in the tank, he was hardly straining in the last few miles. I think this just shows that there are probably half a dozen Kenyans who could have the WR right now, and I think one of them will break 2:03 given the right opportunity in the next few years. Mosop, Mutai, and before his passing, Wanjiru, were all at the same level as Makau. Unfortunately Geb's ship has sailed--I think Geb of 2007/2008 would be running with these guys at 2:03:30 or faster as well. Geb did effectively set up Makau for the record. No way he'd have gotten it without Geb in the race.
Except Canova never said that Boston should be a world record.
He just challenged the large estimates of 3-4 minutes advantage, and suggested it was something much smaller, that Moses was in 2:04 shape, and the advantage was not more than 40 seconds.
But without a rule change, or a course change, Boston results can never be candidates for a world record, due to the point to point course, and excessive elevation drop. Other factors, like course difficulty and weather, are ignored completely.
Comparing different marathon results from different courses on different days is not an easy task, but in my opinion the ARRS does the most extensive statistical calculation of overall course biases, and individual event biases, to produce normalized times for comparison.
On average, Boston is 13.5 seconds slow. Berlin is 68.5 seconds fast. London is 38.8 seconds fast.
This year, Boston was calculated as 1:37 seconds fast (1:42 for women), meaning that the wind and weather gave an overall advantage of 1:51, compared to the average bias.
"Bias adjusted" time comparisons would give Geb's world record a 2:04:10, while Mutai and Mosop get an "adjusted" 2:04:37 and 2:04:41, respectively (only the 5th and 6th best performances at that time). The best "adjusted" performance is Wanjiru's Olympic performance, earning an "adjusted" 2:04:00.
It gets hard to manage all the biases, but Mutai's and Mosop's Boston performance would have equated to a 2:03:28.5 and 2:03:32.5, had it been run in Berlin, under average conditions. This makes a 2:03:38 very credible, yet potentially only the 8th best marathon performance ever.
runn wrote:
NOBODY questioned Joan Benoit's Boston time from back in the 80's.
So, yes it is- end of story.
But today they would, and rightfully so.
I hate to break this to you but the story ends with the IAAF, not with you.
Of course I'm not interested in your opinion, but, only for saying the truth (that obvviously you don't know, because you don't have anything to share with athletics...) I was the responsible of Italy, and in the Marathon Italy won the following World Marathon Cups :
1985 (Hiroshima) with women
1987 (Seoul) with men
1995 (Athens) with men
During the last of these victories, ALL the team was with athletes I directly coached.
Among the athletes I coached (women), I had a bronze medal in WCh 1995 (Ornella Ferrara), silver medal in European Ch 1994 (Maria Curatolo) and bronze medal in European Ch 1998 (Maura Viceconte), still the National Record Holder with 2:23:47 after 11 years (in 10000m, too, with 31:05:57).
And, about men, I had athletes NOT PROFESSIONAL running 2:11, working 8 hours per day, and winning Italian Champs.
So, if you don't want to appear a stupid troll, before speaking is better you know what you are speaking about.
This will all be irrelevant after Mosop's new WR in Chicago.
Jesse, I never supposed the best coach in the World, in any event, can build a WR holder coaching athletes with medium talent. Never a donkey can become a horse.
However, there is a history, in athletics (as in every human field), that people must know.
a) Do you think all the African athletes "self coached" use their ideas of training, or follow a training phylosophy learnt by somebody, with the ability in adapting what they learnt to their reality ?
b) Do you think all the coaches and physiologists speaking about African runners know HOW to adapt science to a different situation ?
c) Do you know all African athletes able to run fast know WHY they run fast ONCE in their life, and after no are no more able ?
d) Do you know how many top african athletes, speaking with their managers, say are in top shape, and after drop out or run 10' slower than their PB, saying "In marathon everything can happen" ? (That is true for every competition : you can be Bolt and can go out for a false start, you can be the best Isinbayeva or Bubka and can go out with 3 faults when you start to jump, but never Bolt or Bubka or Isinbayeva say "everything can happen").
e) In Iten, because I don't represent any management, and because, as lecturer of IAAF, my role is to teach to the coaches HOW to coach (for example, from 22 till 27 Oct I'm in Cairo for a course with North African Coaches, on 30 Nov and 1 Dec I'm in St. Louis with USATF speaking with the US coaches, etc...), all the athletes, also not directly coached by myself, have the opportunity to speak with me, asking questions and sharing their experience of training. You can believe me or not, but during the last 6-7 years the classic Kenyan system of training changed a lot, and part of this change is due to hours and hours of conversations we had together (me, kenyan coaches and kenyan athletes).
Many times, I read something really stupid, about the importance of athletes, coaches and managers in a performance. Without the combination of all these elements (talent of the athlete, knowledge of the coach and strategy from the management), NEVER an athlete can become one top champion.
If you like to eat mushrooms, you need
a) somebody searching and finding mushrooms (in athletics, the first Kenyan able to collect strong and talented young athletes, motivating them in running)
b) somebody cooking mushrooms in right way (a good coach)
c) somebody owner of the restaurant, able to give top imagine to the quality of his food (the manager)
To speculate which role is more important, is something really useless and stupid. Without one of the components, NEVER is possible to have a top product.
To the original troller, which bit of these regulations below should be changed retrospectively? Plus why didn't Makau run as fast as the Boston time if he was ready? Or was he just not ready? Define "ready".
http://www.aimsworldrunning.org/world_records_criteria.htm
The start and finish points of a course, measured along a theoretical straight line between them, shall not be further apart than 50% of the race distance.
The decrease in elevation between the start and finish shall not exceed an average of one in a thousand, i.e. 1m per km.
Canova you are right there was a period that saw Kenyan athletes doing very poorly and not even winning world championships or the olympic marathon titles,by then the Ethiopian did very well. Suddenly since about 2003 0r 2004 the Kenyans have been pulling up great performances,there must have been some brains behind all this revolution.
dfasback wrote:
man I wish Renato would post more about his training philosophy and less in response to these mindless trolls.
QFE
Renato Canova wrote:
all the athletes, also not directly coached by myself, have the opportunity to speak with me, asking questions and sharing their experience of training. You can believe me or not, but during the last 6-7 years the classic Kenyan system of training changed a lot, and part of this change is due to hours and hours of conversations we had together (me, kenyan coaches and kenyan athletes).
Renato, do you happen to know of the training of Patrick Makau? Do you have a new book that goes in detail of the new training, and changes over the last 6-7 years? Thanks very much for sharing.
Silly thought I suppose, but put the best Kenyans on a track and pay 'em a million if they break 2 hours for 26.2 miles