If you could chose only 1 speed workout for a 5k what would it be?

That explains alot wrote:

S. Canaday wrote:

8-10 by 1000m at current 10k pace down to goal 5k pace with a 2min rest between. bread and butter "speed" (Vo2max work) for the demands of a 5k

That is not a bread and butter workout for 5k runners and doesn't do much for your VO2 max, as you never reach 100% VO2 max in that workout, except maybe on toward the end of the last 1-2 reps. Maybe that is why you were never any faster Mr. Canaday.

ouch! called me out there! It is true, my 5k PR is pretty bad relative to other PRs....10k isn't much better. So better take what I say with a grain of salt. I guess depending if the runner is a 1500m/5k type or a 10k/5k type that workout would differ in effectiveness...if you aren't running over 100mpw it would be a lot of volume I guess.

In an attempt to defend the workout and my line of thought though: 1. I think most people run too hard on traditional Vo2max workouts - so therefore starting out closer to LT pace/intensity and negative splitting as the workout progresses is better than killing yourself from the gun trying to go 5k goal pace and risk overtraining or not finishing fast enough. 2. 10k pace is still around 90% Vo2max so you are still having to clear some lactate and your heart rate is pretty darn high...a 2min rest isn't really full recovery either so your last 3-4 kilos at around 5k pace aren't going to be easy (if they are you can always close it down on the last one with a kick!). Thats why it is "5k goal pace"...fast as it may be for some. 3. Gains in Vo2max are minimal after a while - in the long run you need to train your LT and develop better running economy to really improve...something this workout teaches.

And yest, for the record my 5k PR is still only 14:29 - yes, i know, I suck. I have asthma, my Vo2max is rated around 70, and my left leg is longer than my right so it is hard to turn around the track (but only in a counter-clockwise). Ah, if only we ran around the track clockwise!!!

Maybe you should run a clockwise 5000 and see what happens. Your explanation is interesting and useful; I think I'll give this a try and see how it works for old people.

+1 And another one would be 16 x 200 @ mile pace (200 jog rest between reps)

Wise Guy wrote:

I think I'd go with 16x400, 4 sets of 4, 100 meter jog (or one minute if you aren't on a track) between repetitions, 400 meter jog (or 3 minutes if you aren't on a track) between sets.

altoroad wrote:

Rycase wrote:

Tough tough workout. Dont you feel thats a long set for a 5000m runner?

Here's a long set for a 5000 runner; I got it from a friend of mine who ran for Tennessee -- 1600-1200-800-400-400-800-1200-1600 at 5000 pace, with half-distance recovery.

I do something similar to this when I'm 5k training (not often).

1600, 1200, 1000, 800, 600, 400, 200, 200 = 6k.

You get a 400 jog after each interval except for after the 400 on down it's a 200 jog.

The 1600 is done at 5k pace, the 1200 and 1000 at 3k pace, the 800 and 600 at 1500/mile pace, 400, 200, 200 is basically balls-out.

If you want to work on a good finishing kick when you're gassed, do it this way. If you're focus is on building stamina/endurance, do it in the reverse order.

Not trying to be mean, just busting your chops in a playful sort of way.

But on your points:

The workout you describe can be very good, but more so for a speed workout for a marathoner or half marathoner (which is why I assume you like it). But it is really more of a lactate tolerance workout than it is a true VO2 Max workout. You can maintain your VO2 Max or vVO2 Max with your workout but you will not improve upon either.

For a 5k runner, that is more of a strength workout. A true VO2 Max workout would need to be all done at 3k to 5k pace where they are working at 97-100% of VO2 Max. For this I like and suggest repeats of 1000, 1200 or 1600 done at 3k to 5k pace and done with 50-100% of repeat time for recovery. This can help you improve your VO2 Max or vV02, which is more important to a 5k runner than it is a marathoner (which is probably why Keith and Kevin don't spend much time thinking about, teaching or using this.)

If I was a marathoner approaching a 5k race, I might do the workout your way, but if I was a 5k specialist then my true VO2 max work would need to be more along the lines I described for maximum effectiveness.

Ha ha, thats fine -my 5k PR never came down as much as I hoped for so maybe I am just talking out of leftfield on this one...

Of course I am biased towards the higher ST/slower marathon types because thats what I am...so the workout I described is what I like and have experience with (it was more of a Rojo type of influence rather than Kevin and Keith though).

I did read "Daniels Running Formula" when it first came out circa 1999 and have a very good grasp of what a more traditional Vo2max workout is (as you suggested above). As I have stated and cited from Daniels and Pfitzinger in the training section of my book "Running For The Hansons,": Vo2max is obvisouly the most important factor in success for events ranging from 3min to 30min.

Repeat 1200s and 1600s at 3k to 5k pace with a relatively short rest is rough...a lot of guys would be overtraining in doing that in my opinion...and mainly only because this is the one speed workout they can do for the entire cycle/training season (as the OP states) - However, there is something to be said about training at that kind of velocity in terms of lactate clearance, stimulating FT fibers, running economy at vVo2, and of course the big one: left ventricle hypertrophy....most directly specific to 5k demands- so I see where you are coming from.

Finally, of course the workout I suggest is just a part of this whole speculation because no one in their right mind would do just one type of speed workout to optimize performance at 5k. Rather, it is the periodization of the whole training program and the variety of different workouts at critical points in the season that allows for substantial developments...balancing the elements of vo2max, lactate threshold, economy, alactic speed, lactate buffering, building endurance and recovery.

Good discussion - I don't mind any criticisms and am open to seeing other views so bring 'em up.

Peace,

Sage

and yes I spelled "obviously" wrong above (I am horrible at spelling) - please don't get me grammar police!

S. Canaday wrote:

8-10 by 1000m at current 10k pace down to goal 5k pace with a 2min rest between. bread and butter "speed" (Vo2max work) for the demands of a 5k

Very very nice tough workout.

I like the workouts 5x1000 at 5k pace (1:30 rest) and 6x1600 at 10k pace (2:00 rest) and do those often. Your 8x1000 descending from 10k to 5k pace sounds like a good bridge (and more fun), and I'm definitely going to try it! Thanks!

bump

VF Runner wrote:

10-12 x 400 w/ 200 rec.

Some days they would be faster than mile pace with a very slow jogged 200. Some days they would be closer to 5K race pace with a cruise 200.

THIS. Except 20 of them.

hmm. a guy the other day messaged me something about compound sets.

so it would be like…

3x (200, 600, 800, 200)

or

3x (200, 600, 800)

200's at sprinting pace, 600 at 5k pace, 800 at 10k pace

four minutes rest between sets.

oh, btw, there is no rest between the 200, 600, and 800, only rest between sets

These workouts so far a no good.

First of all, if you workout is less than 5000 meter -- you're not doing it right!

20 x 300 at 49-52 secs ... 65 or so meter jog across field recovery.

16 x 600

6 x 1600

3 x 4 minutes, 2 x 3 minutes, 5 x 1 minute

These are much better.

You're all nuts wrote:

Who does speed work for a 5k?

Best speedwork for a 5K?

Just race another 5K.

Sage,

Good stuff, good on you for keeping an open mind and sweet book plug.

The problem I see in your workout, if as in the hypothetocal if you can only do it as your speed workout, is that the only ime in training you are hitting race pace is in the last repeat (1 or 2k per week?) of your workout and you are never running faster than race pace ever in training.

That is a main reason I suggest more classic Daniels VO2 Max work as it done at 3k to 5k pace, yet allows for some volume. More volume than just a race alone (as someone suggested) but also with good time spent at race pace to just slightly faster.

If one was to approach it as you suggest, I think they would feel aweful uncomfortable at 5k pace. More so than with a classic VO2 Max approach.

Not sure I buy your whole over training thing either, that is really just a product of the athlete consistently pushing too hard in a workout, so can happen with any workout. They key would be to limit the number of repetitions to what is appropriate, i.e. not over training. For a ST runner that may be less reps than for a more balanced runner, but that is the challenege of the 1 workout scenario then isn;t it.

Of course I’m going to plug my book at any chance I get!

I may have misinterpreted the OP: “Speed workout” is a very vague term that gets thrown around a lot - but what I assumed (perhaps falsely?) was that in this hypothetical scenario you can only do one type of quality workout (aka speed workout, interval session, track workout, hard session) and that was it. I imagine that all your other days must be easy mileage days (i.e. no supplementary tempo runs, or shorter intervals to compliment the workout). That is why I chose the 8-10 by 1k at LT to Vo2max intensity – because it had the volume of a good LT session, but still got down to 5k goal pace.

The whole “5k goal pace” thing also addresses your point of reaching a velocity that is at or faster than current 5k pace…which I think is good enough for leg turnover and very close to vVo2 (or at least it should be). The workout could also be performed slightly faster on different days for individual athletes based on feel: some days you might feel good and progress from 10k pace to 5k pace within the first 4 reps; some days you might feel bad, cruise at 10k pace for almost the entire workout. Maybe you kick the last kilo what is more like your 3k pace. For some with ambitious goals “5k goal” pace could be significantly faster than current 5k race pace fitness. I have seen many an athlete just put in a base of easy mileage, do a couple of workouts like this and then go out and PR in a 3k or 5k at a significantly faster pace than the actual paces they had hit in workouts they did previously (or any LT workout/tempo run for that matter). Most athletes have plenty of speed reserve to not be too uncomfortable mechanically at 5k pace even without doing traditional “speed work” and workouts at 3k pace or faster (I personally did not have much speed reserve and that’s perhaps why I sucked). For me 10k pace and 5k pace was a matter of 2sec/400m…but paces within that range (10k to goal 5k pace) when you are doing repeat 1000s may be a lot greater depending the the type of athlete, their background in running and their goals. Mile repeats at 3k pace would be way too hard for me (and others I assume). What most hs and college runners need for the 5k is stamina, strength and endurance to utilize more and more of their speed….my workout (after a base of easy miles) works on bridging the critical velocity between lactate threshold intensity and Vo2max while building strength through relatively high volume at a more manageable intensity.

Run Happy!

Sage

www.Vo2maxProductions.com

You're all nuts wrote:

Who does speed work for a 5k?

Fast runners, that's who.

saw this wrote:

VF Runner wrote:

10-12 x 400 w/ 200 rec.

Some days they would be faster than mile pace with a very slow jogged 200. Some days they would be closer to 5K race pace with a cruise 200.

THIS. Except 20 of them.

If there was an edit I would have changed it. I don't think I would have gone all the way to 20, but would have said 12-16. For the recreational/local competitor type (which I admittedly am) I think 20 would be too much. For D1 and better types 16-20 most certainly makes more sense.

Here is the answer:

5 x 1k @ 5k Goal Pace with 1k recovery at goal place + 40 seconds or less

if your 5k goal is 15:00 than goal pace is 3:00

So your workout would be 5 x 1k @ 3:00 with a 1k in 3:40 for recovery between repeats.

After completing this workout, next time reduce the pace on your 1k recovery by 5 seconds (3:35 instead of 3:40).

Once you can do this workout with the recoveries at about 20 seconds slower than the repeats you'll be able to race the 5k at goal pace.

Benefits:

This is a continuous run, it has an element of lactate threshold (recoveries) and VO2 max (repeats) and will actaully help you lower both. Also helps with lactate clearance and tolerance.