Coe 4x400m Video (90min after 1:44.06)

GR wrote:

Impressive run by Coe, but he is not in the same league as Alberto Juantorena for sprint-mid distance range.

Remember, both Juantorena and Coe were WR holders in the 800m, with Juantorena a gold medalist in the 800m. However, Juantorena also won gold in 400m and WR in 400m.

That's nasty ability and when you consider only a single human being has ever done it, it becomes even more impressive.

Juantorena was a 400/800m runner full stop. Coe was an 800/1500m runner.

Juantorena DID NOT break the WR in the 400m.

Coe's 45.6 ability, while not in same league as Juantorena, is far superior to what any other top Miler in history produced. I doubt Juantorena's 1500 ability would compare to Coe's 400 time.

What would a 45.6 (even 46.0) be worth over 1500m??.....3:36!? Would White Lightning be able to run this? I doubt it somehow.

No one had the quality of range between 400 and 1 Mile Coe had.

Actually, there is one runner that could be considered, but I haven't looked up his 800m PB..

I was in Gainesville in 1997 and Noreddine Morceli of Algeria was training on our campus in preparation for a 2 mile, $1 million attempt later in the month.

One week prior to the Florida Relays, Morceli jumped into a Blue vs Orange relay/scrimmage and Morceli subbed for one of our 400 hurdlers.

I don't know if you've ever seen Morceli in person, but he was about 5'1" or shorter... he ran 2nd leg and hawked down Jimmy Hackley, splitting a hand-timed 45.79 on Doug Brown's stopwatch.

It was awesome to watch. Morceli was a beast. Thankfully we all trained together a couple of more weeks and not a single guy on the team could hang with Morceli in anything including the longer runs. Great experience.

firstofall wrote:

First of all, face the inside of the track when you take a hand-off. Second, he could run 11 flat easy in in 100m.

Exactly. Schoolboy relay mistake. Took the baton with his right hand and almost crippled the poor guy coming in, and certainly impacted his acceleration.

Apart from that he was a star.

Fmr Gator wrote:

Actually, there is one runner that could be considered, but I haven't looked up his 800m PB..

I was in Gainesville in 1997 and Noreddine Morceli of Algeria was training on our campus in preparation for a 2 mile, $1 million attempt later in the month.

One week prior to the Florida Relays, Morceli jumped into a Blue vs Orange relay/scrimmage and Morceli subbed for one of our 400 hurdlers.

I don't know if you've ever seen Morceli in person, but he was about 5'1" or shorter... he ran 2nd leg and hawked down Jimmy Hackley, splitting a hand-timed 45.79 on Doug Brown's stopwatch.

It was awesome to watch. Morceli was a beast. Thankfully we all trained together a couple of more weeks and not a single guy on the team could hang with Morceli in anything including the longer runs. Great experience.

Morceli certainly IS NOT 5'1".

His IAAF profile has him at 1.72m, which is about 5'7".

Then again, the heights of a lot of athletes don't appear very accurate at times. EL G is listed at 1.76 (5'9"), which is certainly not the case. It can also be found as low as 1.73m (5'7") and up to 1.80m (about 5'10). When looking at him standing alongside other runners I'd say he was much closer to 5'10"

Here's a picture with him alongside Roger Bannister, who is 6'1 and a half"(1.86m)

There's no way EL G's anything less than 5'10"

If you look at this photo of Morceli and Cacho, they're about the same height. Cacho is listed as 1.75m on the IAAF website, which seems about right, as he looked about the same height as Coe (1.76m/5'9") and Herold (1.76m/5'9")

when the 3 ran together in the 1989 World Cup 1500m.

5'1" is 1.55m. There is no way Morceli was 20cm smaller than Cacho or Coe.

As for Morceli's 800pb, it was 1:44.79 set in 1991. While I don't doubt he was capable of faster than that at his absolute best between 93 and 95, it's worth noting that his 2nd fastest 800m, 1:44.89, was run in Cologne 94, He was only 3rd in that race and went through 400m in 50.9 (50.9/54.0). That was the year he broke the 3000m WR, and with that endurance, together with the sub 46 sec 400 speed you suggest, he should have run markedly faster than 1:44.89, don't you think?

Indeed, in 93, possibly his best year (3:44 Mile WR), he attempted Coe's 1000m WR, and came up quite a bit short with 2:13.73, despite economical pacing and splits (his) of 52.4 and 1:46.0. A guy capable of a 3:44 Mile and a sub 46 sec 400m would have probably have broken the WR for that event.

While I don't doubt Morceli's excellence over a wide range of distances ( a lot further up the distance than Coe) or your story, I think it's a bit like the TT of EL G running 800m solo in 1:42.7. There's an element of truth in it, but somewhere along the line it's been embellished somewhat.

Morceli definitely not 5'1" and I doubt he ran a 45.79 400 split, especially not in 97, one of his less successful years. If he did, then I have no idea why he wasn't chasing the 800 and 1000m records on a regular basis!

800m runner wrote:

Coe purposefully feigned injury at the start so he wouldn't have to lead so he could draft.

Deano you are dreaming if you think there was no draft benefit

I don't think so. As "johnsonrebuttal" wrote: -

"Exactly. Schoolboy relay mistake. Took the baton with his right hand and almost crippled the poor guy coming in, and certainly impacted his acceleration.

Apart from that he was a star."

If Coe wanted to purposely follow the American, then he'd have just gone off a bit slower and let the other guy go past!

As for drafting, I think I said there wouldn't have been much rather than NO drafting. I always remember my good friend Ventolin telling me the athlete had to be "right behind" the lead runner, no more than 2m, for there to be drafting. He complained that a 4m gap allowed no drafting at all! I'd say Coe was 4m behind for the first 200m, which would have given a slight drafting effect.

Coe's speed was phenomenal.

Now I have to agree with deano. Why compare him with Juantorena? There is a big difference between a 400/800 athlete, and a 800/1500/2000/2 miler.

After all, Coe raced and won the Cinque Mulini CC race in Italy in 79-80. Against serious, world-class distance athletes. There's just no way any of those competitors, including Ovett, could have run even with let alone beaten a US 400m specialist in his own event.

And we're not talking about a 400/800 guy who ran a 44 one season and then a 1:44 three years later, taking turns to focus on each event. In 1981 Coe broke the mile WR twice. This 400 relay leg came from the same season. And 90mins after a 1:44.0! F! The only active athlete today who could duplicate this 400/800 same day feat is Rudisha but he doesn't compare with Coe over 1k or any greater distance.

Coe's 81 season was one of the handful of greatest track seasons of all time. It ranks with these:

Snell 62

Kipketer 97

Gabresilasie 98

You have obviously never trained with Morceli. I am 5'7" and generous at that and towered over him and he split sub-46" on Coach Brown's watch, hand-timed.

Give Doug Brown a call. Morceli had a camp there for a couple of years (perhaps lent to by Mark Carroll) where he would prepare. Go ahead and ask me how tall Mark is and I will say about 5'5" and he was taller than Morceli.

deanouk,

A quick Google Search would prove that Gator is onto something, Morceli was a shrimp, probably as small or smaller than Geb.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=noureddine+morceli&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1440&bih=733&wrapid=tlif131110913250310&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi

The fascination with Coe's 400m speed is mainly because he was also a miler; however, his 400m capabilities was average for an 800m runner. Coe ran 46xs when he was a 1:45x 800m runner, I am sure when he was in 1:41 shape he was a 45x 400m runner. Keep in mind that there have been 800m runners with 44x 400m PRs. I am not sure you could even run a 1:41 only being capable of running a 46.89 400m. A 1:41x race goes out in 49x and that would practically be sprinting all out for a 46.89 guy. Your 400m speed is the main limiting factor in your 800m capabilities, just the 200m is in the 400m for example. - This is the same rationale behind why Wheating and Andrews will ultimately become milers.

I would be surprised if Morceli was much under 47. With that type of leg speed and his endurance he would have been pushing 1:42. I am guessing there is a big clump of 1500m guys with 47-48s 400m prs but not many that have a legit sub 47 type speed.FWIW I always though Morceli was 5'7 and unless memory is failing me, he towered over Geb when they raced. If you ever see a golden league meet where there is a 5'1 woman anda 5'7 one, the difference is really noticeable. Same thing with a guy like Geb and 5'10 guy.

Fmr Gator wrote:

Actually, there is one runner that could be considered, but I haven't looked up his 800m PB..

I was in Gainesville in 1997 and Noreddine Morceli of Algeria was training on our campus in preparation for a 2 mile, $1 million attempt later in the month.

One week prior to the Florida Relays, Morceli jumped into a Blue vs Orange relay/scrimmage and Morceli subbed for one of our 400 hurdlers.

I don't know if you've ever seen Morceli in person, but he was about 5'1" or shorter... he ran 2nd leg and hawked down Jimmy Hackley, splitting a hand-timed 45.79 on Doug Brown's stopwatch.

It was awesome to watch. Morceli was a beast. Thankfully we all trained together a couple of more weeks and not a single guy on the team could hang with Morceli in anything including the longer runs. Great experience.

Fmr Gator wrote:

You have obviously never trained with Morceli. I am 5'7" and generous at that and towered over him and he split sub-46" on Coach Brown's watch, hand-timed.

Give Doug Brown a call. Morceli had a camp there for a couple of years (perhaps lent to by Mark Carroll) where he would prepare. Go ahead and ask me how tall Mark is and I will say about 5'5" and he was taller than Morceli.

No I haven't trained with him, and I'm sure you have. I didn't mean to offend you.

Yes, he was small, but all the photographic and video evidence available for all to see would suggest that he was much taller than 5'1"

Watch this video: -

About 1min 18 secs in, Morceli stands on the podium next to EL G (5'10") and Venuste Niyongabo (1.76m/ 5'9", according to the only height I could find for him, as there isn't one listed on the IAAF website) -

!&id=3283830

From the Youtube video there is a maximum of 3 inches between Morceli and EL G, which would put the former at 5'7"/1.72m. I'd say Niyongabo was an inch taller than Morceli.

So, the only way Morceli was 5'1" is if EL G was 5'4" and Niyongabo 5'2"

If that's the case, then all the stats on athletes' heights and weights are wrong on the IAAF website, and we can't take any of the stats they produce seriously.

Skuj wrote:

Reading this thread, many interesting observations, but I think many have overlooked the fact that it was 90min after 1:44.06

Yes, that was very impressive. Perhaps he'd have run a quicker leg still if he'd been fresh. He actually did run "just" a 400m relay a few days later in a match between England, Scotland and Italy at Gateshead. He took over in the lead (about 2m in front of the Italian) in that one, and just cruised the opening 300m, while the Italian sat on his shoulder, before pulling away in the home straight. That was a 46.5 split, but he really wasn't trying. Three days later he ran in Florence!

Morcelli was short, but he was definitely taller than 5"1', he only a few inches shorter than me and I'm almost 6". 5"1' would make him the worlds shortest world class athlete. If I had go guess, I would say he was say Morcelli was about 5"7', which is still short, but not abnormal. - You need to realize how short 5"1' is and if you actually trained with him I don't know how you can say he was that short.

honestly1 wrote:

12.0?

He ran 46.xx in open and 45.xx in relays. A 46.xx is 11.5-11.7 per 100 meters. The first 100 of a 400 was probably 12.0 - and that's 400 pace.

I bet Coe could run 11.1-11.2 out of the blocks.

12.0! 11.1!!

Jonathan Edwards (triple jumper) had a 100m PB of 10.48 seconds.... Believe me Coe would have been well under 11 seconds! Probably 10.7ish with little specific training

savagesquid wrote:

After all, Coe raced and won the Cinque Mulini CC race in Italy in 79-80. Against serious, world-class distance athletes.

Coe's 81 season was one of the handful of greatest track seasons of all time. It ranks with these:

Snell 62

Kipketer 97

Gabresilasie 98

He ran the Cinque Mulini in 1980 and finished 21st! Here is a list of all his races (unless Deano knows any that have been missed off).

I would add Cram's 1985 season to your list of greatest seasons.

Little fat boy Matthew wrote:

Skuj wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhZGonCBaOM&feature=related

Apologies if this has already been posted recently. I never saw him blast a 400m before, very very interesting.

Yeah, it was posted, but it's still cool. Not really unheard of for him to run a 400. If you were over 35 you'd know that.

Heres a pic of Coe at the after party.

http://tinyurl.com/3zw9wyb

Coe's speed is legendary. Not really a surprise to real fans. The guy could motor.

daniel j, wrote:

savagesquid wrote:

After all, Coe raced and won the Cinque Mulini CC race in Italy in 79-80. Against serious, world-class distance athletes.

Coe's 81 season was one of the handful of greatest track seasons of all time. It ranks with these:

Snell 62

Kipketer 97

Gabresilasie 98

He ran the Cinque Mulini in 1980 and finished 21st! Here is a list of all his races (unless Deano knows any that have been missed off).

http://thegreatdistancerunners.de/SebastianCoe.html

I would add Cram's 1985 season to your list of greatest seasons.

Cram could never run under 47 for a 400. His tactic was to go for broke from 300 and get those long legs moving and maintain. He needed a gap with 200 to go to win.

daniel j, wrote:

savagesquid wrote:

After all, Coe raced and won the Cinque Mulini CC race in Italy in 79-80. Against serious, world-class distance athletes.

Coe's 81 season was one of the handful of greatest track seasons of all time. It ranks with these:

Snell 62

Kipketer 97

Gabresilasie 98

He ran the Cinque Mulini in 1980 and finished 21st! Here is a list of all his races (unless Deano knows any that have been missed off).

http://thegreatdistancerunners.de/SebastianCoe.html

I knew what savagesquid was getting at. He meant the La Scarpa d' Oro in Vigevano, which he won twice, in 1980 (20:59 over 7.5km) and 1983 (18:28 over 6.7km not 7.5km as the link states) in which he beat some very useful 5 & 10k runners such as Stefano Mei, Francesco Panneta, Alberto Cova & Gelindo Bordin amongst others. This race was subsequently won by the likes of Ovett, Ngugi, Tergat, De Castella, Tanui, Di Napoli, Cova himself, etc. So he was in good company with some serious distance boys, considering he was an 800m runner.

Coe hated XC, and the conditions in the Cinqui Mulini race were very heavy going and not suited to his light frame and running action.