4x400 w/ 5 min rest

run the first 2 in 54, then last two all out.

highskool400 wrote:

So i did this workout and hit 55s for all 4 400s.

i think the 5 minutes wasn't enough for me to fully recover but enough for me to do the next one without straining. Overall, a tough lactic workout.

what can i run for 400m and 800m?

can't ask my coach he's an idiot LOL

Why do you say the coach is an idiot?

This was supposed to be at your goal pace - so 1.50 for 800m. You ran 1.53 only recently! Perhaps this might more likely be a reflection of your first lap (55+57-58 = 1.52-53). What we also don't know is the progression of this type of session i.e. next as another Ltol.session of 3x500m (8-10min rec)at that pace or a buffering session (2x2x400m-1min rec/15min set rec) at that pace, or at least for the first 400m and see much your 2nd 400m time decays (slows down). That would be a better indicator of what you could do anyway.

maybe he's not an idiot but he never wants to tell me much about why im doing certain workouts or what im capable of i just try to figure it out myself.

i think its my 800m race pace for the peak end of my season. the 1:53 was a few weeks ago and just my opener. i went 56/57 so pretty even except my 3rd 200 was slow then last 150 picked up a lot to take the win.

seems like the workouts you are talking about have a lot more rest than the 5 minutes i got between my 400s but between the ones in the set u just get a minute. why is this? if i get one minutes between the two why 15 minutes after that, seems too long. but again im sure you know a lot more than i do but i'm really interested in why those workouts would be a step up.

In a HS environment he/she may not have time (or perhaps just not willing to give it) to explain every session to each athlete. Perhaps the coach should, but don't go to College expecting that either as you may have a rude awakening.

It's the difference between lactate tolerance and buffering lactate (in an over-simplified way). Both are means of developing speed-endurance to some degree. They are also very difficult sessions that need to be handled carefully so that athletes aren't overloaded - i.e. definitely not something to do everyday, perhaps not even every week for younger athletes.

Hey everyone, new guy here.

Today I did 4x400 with more rest (around 8-9 minutes). It was around 90 degrees out though.

My times were 54.4, 54.6, 54.2, 54.8.

What can I run in the 800?? Thanks in advance!!

J.R. wrote:

J.R. wrote:

I did feel a conundrum with running my fastest distance times - while improving my speed for 800/mile - as they seemed to be contradictory to each other.

J.O. wrote:

And what have you learned from this J.R.? I would hope that now you would know how you could have raced fast over a wide range of distances within a few weeks with the right training?

I'm open to suggestions.

What I learned is that it wasn't possible to run anywhere near my fastest for 440/880, with similar training to that for events from 2 miles on up. The 3x440 was actually with 20 minute starts in 57 55 53. A session like that would not have been possible when running my fastest for 5k/10k/marathon.

Maybe I could have included a regular small amount of short sprints with long rests. What do you think?

I think you underestimated your ability and didn't train hard enough. You could have done 55 54 54 53 with 5 or 6 minutes recovery and it would have helped your 5000/10000 training.

newcomer wrote:

Hey everyone, new guy here.

Today I did 4x400 with more rest (around 8-9 minutes). It was around 90 degrees out though.

My times were 54.4, 54.6, 54.2, 54.8.

What can I run in the 800?? Thanks in advance!!

idk man seems like you may have taken too much rest. The OP said he only took 5 min rest which would be more accurate to determine 800m ability. So since you took longer rest i'd add about 2 seconds to your average and multiple by 2 to get your 800 time. with that said i'd give you about 1:53ish, 1:52 on a good day

with the OP doing his in 55s with 5 min rest, seems more true to 800 ability so i'd say he can prolly go about 1;50-51.

baker street blues wrote:

It's the difference between lactate tolerance and buffering lactate (in an over-simplified way).

Can you explain this a little more - what exactly is the difference, what workouts go with each type, and how do you know one workout is doing one thing while the other workout is doing the other?

Side question for everyone - on my schedule today is 4x400 with 4 minutes rest. Basically the same workout as 4x400 with 5 min rest, or is it going to hurt a whole lot more by the last rep since I'll be on 3 minutes less recovery by then?

Lactate isn't buffered or tolerated. He's getting lactate confused with H+ not the same thing, but because of the coincidence of lactate accumulation and H+ accumulation, the two have been assumed to be the same molecule.

Anyway, biochmemistry is pretty much irrelevant, biomechanics is what you need to concern yourself with, how well can you maintain that pace, before your form goes and your stride starts to shut down?

J.O. wrote:

Lactate isn't buffered or tolerated. He's getting lactate confused with H+ not the same thing, but because of the coincidence of lactate accumulation and H+ accumulation, the two have been assumed to be the same molecule.

Anyway, biochmemistry is pretty much irrelevant, biomechanics is what you need to concern yourself with, how well can you maintain that pace, before your form goes and your stride starts to shut down?

So its safe to say the best way of improving is by increasing the length of the repetitions. like next step would be doing 4x 500 coming through 400 in the same pace and maintaining through 500??

That's too big a jump, you don't increase speed endurance by 25% more distance in one go. 5% in two weeks would be a very good improvement.

so you're saying go from doing 4x400 to 4x420, lol that doesn't seam logical. that sounds like something off of runnersworld. an extra 100m isn't that much but enough to improve your speed endurance considerably

No, what I'm saying is that you need to be more realistic about how much you will improve from one workout to the next.

well i wasn't talking about from one workout to the next. i was talking about when u would step it up for that workout in particular which i probably wouldn't do that exact same workout again for at least a month if not until the follow track season. now during the current season i would do workouts LIKE this one with slight variances but still doing the same total volume.

Doing this workout today with HS kids. Every kid that can run sub 60 in this workout over the past 20 years of coaching can run a sub 2:02 and sub 52 in the 400

highskool400 wrote:

maybe he's not an idiot but he never wants to tell me much about why im doing certain workouts or what im capable of i just try to figure it out myself.

He's not an idiot, he knows that race results matter while predictions and hypotheticals don't--I've had coaches like this. Next race, go out at workout pace, see what happens.

My 9-year old daughter just did this but with 2 min rest, went 1:37 and then cut-down to 1:33 (but extended to 500m). good workout.