Deep South Runners: How do you keep 60-80m/w in the Summer

malmo wrote:

Nappy Roots wrote:

Malmo, you are by far one of my favorite posters on this board but you are 1000% wrong on this one. 75/muggy in the morning feels much worse than 75/dry.

With that said, I'll add a qualifier, I probably should not have said "dry" because that gives the connotation that I am comparing a place like Arizona dry to the South humid. What I'm trying to say by dry is a comparison of a dry Southern day to the normal Southern humidity. When the dew point is in the 70s and temp is 75, it can be very difficult to run, I know, I've experienced it many times. However, it is much easier to run in those conditions, compared to what it would have been like to run in the afternoon of that same day.

The single biggest problem living in the south...I'm on the Florida Gulf Coast....is what amounts to collective dehydration. You tend to feel more sluggish because of it. I find running in the evening easier than running in the morning even if it's cooler in the morning but that may be a personal preference. I've run 100mpw living here with little trouble. Had to run doubles to do it but that would have been the case living anywhere.

You must more or less reverse your seasons living where I do from what you might expect living in the northern part of the country. Summer is the time to put base mileage with only touching upon speedwork...in the form of strides...in the South. Typical of what I might do during the winter in the North. If your plan is to run a set of 10 x 800m during the summer no matter what time of day you run here...it's probably a bad plan. You may complete it but you'll suffer trying to recover.

I spent some time in the south when it would be over 80 degrees at 6:00 AM and over 100 a few hours later. It can be brutal at first, and it never really is comfortable, but you adjust. I ran with guys who were doing 100mpw in that stuff and they managed. I would suggest doing doubles, running in the early morning and late evening, like 6:00 AM and 9:00 PM, but I understand if that isn't practical. Regardless, drink a lot, be careful not to do any long runs in the heat of the day, get your rest, and keep a fine tune to your condition. If you're feeling more and more sluggish each day, take a day or two off.

You can always run on the treadmill as well. ;)

not the DEEP south, but in north carolina during the summer, i either get up at 5 30, or run around 7. after a day of work especially, for some reason, i've always had a harder time dealing with the sun and the heat in the evening than the thick humidity in the morning. getting a hard effort that early always takes it out of me and i have a crappy day at work, but i'd rather that than have a crappy run after work. going out drinking is also not the best of ideas while training during the summer here... cutting back on that helps. going out dehydrated in the heat can be really dangerous (i passed out and woke up in the hospital once when i was a teenager... just plain dumb)

One suggestion may be to turn off the air conditioning or at least limit it. If the only time that you are experiencing the heat and humidity is during your run, then you are going to suffer horribly. Spending 23 hours in a 72 degree, low humidity air conditioned environment is not conducive to spending one hour running in an environment with a dew point of 75.

I spent years in south Florida, training for fall marathons during July to September. I did most of my miles starting at about 5:30 a.m. Add an evening run, and I was doing 100+ miles per week in Ft. Lauderdale and Miami in August and September. I rarely used my air conditioner, just lots of fans. I survived.

tudler wrote:

If you're running only singles and the long run is at 18, Should I do doubles to keep it up there? Go down to 50m/w comfortably? What do you DO? Don't tell me what to do, unless you do it. I'm 43 running 65 pretty easily right now, however by the beginning of July it will be over 75' at 5:30am and that lasts til the end of September.

Summer would also be an excellent time to begin incorporating hill sprints a la Canova into your routine; arguably, warmer is better for that kind of work.

18 seems a little much for a long run in general; during the summer, that would be the first thing to cut back.

do my main runs starting at 7 pm, I have about 90 minutes

for long runs I'd start at 6:30 and finish in the dark

for morning runs as soon as I wake up I run, usually later than I should - but I dont want to go to bed at 10 after finishing a run at 830, so it can be brutal, just grin and bear

malmo wrote:

Nappy Roots wrote:And yes, Black people need sun screen too:)

Yes I know. I managed swimming pools when I was in college. Martin Lawrence was one of the nappy-headed knuckleheads at one of them.

Nice. I'm sure he was hilarious as a kid; most folks with his talent are born funny!

For the other poster that "didn't understand" humidity versus saturation, Malmo is spot-on. Humidity is relative, figuratively and literally. The thing us deep southerners have to worry about is the dewpoint. The first thing I check in the morning between May and October isn't the temperature, it's the dewpoint. Whether it's 65 or 85 degrees in the morning (low 80's are very common at even 6am in the middle of the summer), a high dewpoint could make you feel like you're swimming through the air. And let me tell you, when that thing is 70+ you better adjust your run/workout. You can and still should run long in the summer, but just know that pace is secondary and effort is everything. I've spent virtually my entire life in the south and I haven't 'adjusted' yet. Hot is still hot no matter how old I get.

Another guy suggested drinking everything in sight and you'll be fine running longer runs in 100+ temperatures. This is my suggestion: unless you're a camel you better not try doing that. That's EXTREMELY dangerous and misleading. He or she may be an outlier, able to withstand dangerous temps and leap tall buildings in a single bound. I'm not. Most folks aren't.

Another suggestion for the OP that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet: hit the trails. Shadier and normally a bit "cooler" (90+ VS mid 80's), it gives you a break from the sun. If you could hit the trails when the sun is at its lowest altitude, that's definitely even better.

Nappy Roots wrote:

Nice. I'm sure he was hilarious as a kid; most folks with his talent are born funny!

When I first found out he was a comedian was about 20 years ago. I had just gotten back from a long day of playing poker. Stripped my smoke-stenched clothes off and showered. Then turned on the TV to watch until I was relaxed and could go to bed. I'm flipping through the channels and there was some sort of stand up comedy show on. The guy on stage looked familiar but I couldn't place a name to the face. I'm tired and want to go to bed, but I've got to see who this guy was so I watch the show. Finally at the end the MC stands up and say, "OK everyone, give it up for Martin Lawrence!"

"MARTIN LAWRENCE!" I jumped out of my seat laughing. "I knew that face looked familiar", I said to myself, now remembering his crossed-eyes and his blue pool card.

One day I kicked Martin out of the pool for horseplay. On the way out he turned around and told me he was going tell his big brother to kick my ass. I walked over to him and I said, "Martin, you go get your brother. You go get him right now and bring him back here to kick my ass. When he gets here I'm going to tell him about all your dirty mistreatin' at the swimming pool, and then after that, your brother and I are both going to give you an ass-whooping from here to Sunday!"

malmo wrote:

Nope it's really a combination of things, that depends mostly on the altitude of the Sun, then the humidity. 75/humid in the early morning or evening is easier on you than 75/dry with the Sun beating down on you mid afternoon.

You are so wrong on this one.

I lived in Georgia for 15 years. It was impossible for me to do long runs in the summer until I started doing them late in the afternoon. 90 degrees and 40% humidity is a breeze compared to 70 and 90% humidity. When the humidity is that high you sweat endlessly but it doesn't cool you off. Heavy sweaters end up dehydrating, overheating, and walking home. Even though it's hotter in the afternoon there's a cooling effect as your sweat evaporates.

If you can see the air, it's too humid to run.

Savannah running in the summer starts to get absolutely brutal after 9 a.m. most days and although I sometimes run some miles in the midday, that is unwise. A couple years ago, I was doing a lot of low six easy miles up in Vermont and after driving down here in late July was running over 8 minute pace and it was very hard. Close to and after dusk is tougher than the early morning but definitely manageable. I was struggling with marathon pace tempos of 8 to 11 miles in the early evening here in October when it was still in the 90s at times and the same pace felt very easy even with hills in my nyc marathon that year. If you cannot recuperate adequately, it might be reasonable to cut mileage down here in the summer because time on your feet running and the toll on your body will be substantially more for the same mileage as in winter.

Humidity plays a much bigger role them altitude of the sun

Why ask southerners? New York had 30 successive days with temperatures above 80, last July.

DC summers are SOOOO not some of the worst in the country! Having grown up in Texas, then spent a few years in DC, followed by now 7 years in Houston, I can assure you that DC summers are gorgeous by comparison. Sure, DC has some oppressive days, but most of the days are rather nice. Rarely did I think twice about running at 7:30 or 8 a.m. (or later) in the summer in DC. Heat and humidity takes on a whole new meaning in states like MS, TX, LA, FL, and logging high mileage in those states is a TOTALLY different experience.

Having done much of my training in Florida I know a little bit about running in the heat. Staying hydrated is, of course, inportant but you can STILL have heat exhaustion or a heat stroke when you are fully hydrated. I'm speaking of high humidity/high dew points; morning temps around 80-82 and afternoons with a steady high of around 92 May through Oct. . Recognize the first symptoms-goosebumps on your body, a slightly dizzy feel and then exhaustion starts to set in. You can run a few miles like this perhaps but it is foolish to do so. Once you've had a heat stroke, your body will never adapt that well to heat again (probably not an old sives tale). I repeat, the goosebumps are a sure sign your body is overheating.

You can adapt to the heat. We ran for years and years without thinking much about the heat. We grew up with it, trained in it and respected it. We found that long runs worked best in the morning. We usually went out around 5-6 AM to start our twenty milers and sometimes repeated parts of the route so we could have access to cold water in our cars. Again, I am talking about running in central, west coast Florida.

To quote an unknown runner: "I was sweating in places I didn't know I had." We still have moderate temperatures this time of year and it's relatively dry so it is a good time to pick up your distance and your paces. You should be heat and distance acclimated by June. Good luck in your training for an early fall marathon like Chitown. You'll be doing your long runs in July, August and early Sept. You will need to have adapted to the heat by then.

I can only remember one long run (22 miles) where I didn't believe I could finish, I finished but it ruined my marathon. It took weeks to recover from the mild heat exhaustion.

I certainly don't have all the expertise in this but I am simply relaying my(and my running friends) experience in training through the summer heat in FL. Oh, and our training group usually averaged 65-100 miles a wek prior to the marathon.

Nothing like running by the bank at 10PM and it is 85 in coastal FL, AL, MS, LA, TX during the summer. Having moved out West after living in the coastal Southeast, I thought that I had died and gone to heaven.

crazy talk wrote:

DC summers are SOOOO not some of the worst in the country! Having grown up in Texas, then spent a few years DC, followed by now 7 years in Houston, I can assure you that DC summers are gorgeous by comparison. Sure, DC has some oppressive days, but most of the days are rather nice. Rarely did I think twice about running at 7:30 or 8 a.m. (or later) in the summer in DC. Heat and humidity takes on a whole new meaning in states like MS, TX, LA, FL, and logging high mileage in those states is a TOTALLY different experience.

crazy talk wrote:

DC summers are SOOOO not some of the worst in the country! Having grown up in Texas, then spent a few years in DC, followed by now 7 years in Houston, I can assure you that DC summers are gorgeous by comparison

Did I say that DC was worse than Houston?

tudler wrote:

If you're running only singles and the long run is at 18, Should I do doubles to keep it up there? Go down to 50m/w comfortably? What do you DO? Don't tell me what to do, unless you do it. I'm 43 running 65 pretty easily right now, however by the beginning of July it will be over 75' at 5:30am and that lasts til the end of September.

In the Birmingham area it was 76* with low humidity at 1pm when I went out for 21 miles and was comfortable (weather-wise). It's the humidity that will get you.

I see no need for doubles at your mileage if you can get out the door at 5am or after 7pm during July and August.

At 50yo I no longer do fall marathons so I don't ramp up big summer mileage. I start a buildup in late September to October-ish, run a spring marathon, recover and go until around July 4th with a bunch of 5K's before using July and August as recovery months and family vacation time.

Malmo:You are using humidity where you mean relative humidity. Another common measure of moisture in some circles is the specific humidity (mass of water vapor over total mass of the air), which like dew point is a more absolute measure of the moisture than RH.

malmo wrote:

You're the one who is confused. Humidity is irrelavant. It rises and falls (all things being equal) with temperature. Dew point is the measure of actual energy in the air.

The presumption is that those who are posting in this thread are talking about RH, because that is the number that they read in the paper.

You're way out of your depth here. Temperature isn't fungible. 90º in the afternoon isn't the same as 90º in the evening. All temperature reading are taken in the shade, so when it's reported to be 90º in the afternoon it is actually much hotter "in the Sun". In the evening you don't have that additional boost of radiant energy and the recorded temperature will be close or equal to the ground temperature.

90/40% puts the dew point at 62. 70/90% put is at 67, which is a virtual tie. 62-67 DP is EXCELLENT for running, the only difference is the effect of the Suns direct energy on the ground which makes it even hotter than 90. Running in 90/40 conditions is never better than 70/90 BRM.

The Dew Point Temperature - A Better Approach

The Concept

Humidity is a complicated concept. Humidity refers to evaporated water substance in the air, i.e. water vapor. For years relative humidity has been what we use to inform the TV audience, but it has many pit falls and to tell you the truth almost no one understands it, including many meteorologists.

Think Energy

When thinking of humidity you always have to think in terms of energy. Of course this is expressed as temperature. There is only so much energy to go around and only a certain part of the thermal energy can go to do the work of evaporation. The rest goes to the other molecules in the air.

Relative humidity expresses how much of the available energy has been used. A relative humidity of 50% means half the energy has been used to evaporate water from the ground, streams, lakes anywhere else it is and 50% is still available to do more evaporation.

Relative to What?

On a summer morning the temperature may be 75 degrees and the relative humidity 90%, a very sticky morning indeed. Without changing the amount of water vapor in the air if the temperature hits 92 degrees in the afternoon the relative humidity is 52%. Relative humidity is RELATIVE TO THE AMOUNT OF ENERGY AVAILABLE Because the amount of energy increased as the sun warmed the atmosphere the percentage of the energy used decreased, i.e. the relative humidity, all the while there was no change in the amount of vapor in the air.

So when you hear someone say its feels worse than 52% relative humidity today, they do not understand the concept of RELATIVE HUMIDITY. Ninety-two degrees and 52% is a very humid afternoon. Because the concept is confusing many meteorologists are trying to get use dew point temperature.

The Dew Point Temperature

Dew point temperature is a measure of humidity. If you take a parcel of air, and cool it, eventually you will remove enough energy to begin to get water vapor to condense. Remember the water vapor was originally liquid water and to get it to evaporate you had to add energy. As long as it has sufficient energy it will remain vapor, but as you cool it at some point condensation will occur. The temperature where condensation begins is the dew point temperature. In terms of relative humidity, as the parcel of air is cooled, the relative humidity increases, when the relative humidity reaches 100%, you are at the dew point temperature.

Dew Point vs. R.H.

Unlike relative humidity if dew point increases, it is only because the amount of moisture increases. If relative changes it can be because of temperature change or moisture change, two variables leads to too many possibilities, with dew point it is strictly moisture you are tracking.

Dew point can never be higher than the temperature, at saturation, i.e. 100% relative humidity the temperature and dew point are the same.

So How Does Dew Point Feel?

On a typical summer day the following apply:

________________________________________

• Dew Point(F)..........Perception

________________________________________

• 75+....................Extremely uncomfortable

• 70-74...................Very humid, quite uncomfortable

• 65-69...................A bit uncomfortable for most people

• 60-64...................Ok for most, but everyone begins to feel the humidity

• 55-59...................Comfortable

• 50-54...................Very comfortable

• <=49...................Feels like the west, very pleasant, a bit dry to some

________________________________________

A Common Misconception

One last thing if you ever hear someone say it was 90 degrees and the humidity was 90%, that has never happened in Cincinnati, (and unless the greenhouse effect goes into overdrive never will). 90 deg/90% requires a dew point of 85.5 degrees. In Cincinnati the highest ever dew point was 81 deg. for just a few minutes.

In August 1995 we had four hours of 78,79,78,77 degree dew points, the highest persistent dew points I have seen in Cincinnati since working here as a meteorologist. For one hour I did see a dew point of 81, just after a thunderstorm.

World Record Dew Points

However veterans of the Persian Gulf War know what 90/90 feels like. The Persian Gulf and Red Sea both attain sea water temperatures in the mid 90's. That's plenty of energy, along with the 115 degree air temperatures, to evaporate water.

The dew point has been measured on the shore of Ethiopia, the area is now part of Eritrea, at 94 deg. F. The highest known dew point temperature in the world. The relative humidity with a temp of 115 and a dew point of 94 is 54% this doesn't tell you as much as the dew point when you consider the table above.