CCRAIG VIRGIN'S THOUGHTS ON VERZBICAS TRIPLE AND CHESEREK'S RECORD

Though I agree that cheserek should not be considered for hs American records until he is a US citizen, I felt it highly disturbing that a grown man with such accolades as Virgin would write in such a way as to stoke his own ego regarding hs performances- had to comment about heat, wind, how much harder it was, blah blah blah. Seriously? You won world xc, dude! What a tool.

I'm sure somebody has mentioned this somewhere, but I think it's worth remembering that neither Edward nor Lukas, as far as I can see, has publicly claimed ownership of any of these records. LV has mentioned on a number of occasions when such issues come up that he's actually older than most students in his grade by at least a year. I don't think Edward has had his photo taken next to any race clock holding his finger in the air as number one. It worries me that kids are getting a lot of flack, albeit indirectly, for attending school and running. Solomon Haile is another matter altogether, however...

>>>

I thought it was kind of BS that Lukas could come in as a 16 year old frosh and set a bunch of records and torch kids two years younger than him at an age when two years is a HUGE difference.

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3960689&page=1#ixzz1GsSpjnC9

Buy your shoes from LetsRun and save 20% everday

http://www.letsrun.com/save

I don't know why people are even mentioning Edward being possibly 20 when he graduates. At the oldest he will be 19 if he doesn't attend summer school and many high school athletes are 19 and compete in their respective sports. Edward is a very bright young man and to my understanding adjusting to the U.S school system pretty good, so it's possible he could graduate at 18.

Edward Cheserek came to the U.S to better his life and possibly assist his family life as well in the future. So what's the difference between American students competing in basketball, track, or football competing at 19 and eligible for records then foreign athletes? It's high school records not American High School and I agree if the athlete is 20 his senior year then that's where the line needs to drawn.

As of August he was 16 and starting his Soph year:

http://rise.espn.go.com/track-and-xc/metro/2010-xc/NJ/Edward-Cheserek-feature.aspx

who could blame the young man for wanting to get out of the situation he lived in, see below link

http://photos.nj.com/star-ledger/2010/11/kenyan_cross-country_runner_ed_7.html

1) I said 19-20 because, though no fault of his, Kenyan birth records are often inaccurate, especially if the person in question is born out the sticks.

2) I think it's pretty lame when any athlete is 19 as a senior, even if it's a blond, blue-eyed football from Kansas who loves his Ma and apple pie. Even if it's within the rules, I think Cheserek should pull a Lukas V and voluntarily elect not to go for high school records at 19.

3) Could not agree with you more on Cheserek wanting to be here after what he's been through. Hard working, grateful immigrants have long been the backbone of this country, and if Cheserek is as good a naturalized citizen has Meb, Abdi, and Lagat then America will be lucky to have him. I have absolutely no problem with a foreign citizen coming over here to try to improve his lot in life- that's the American Dream! For me it's only a matter of his age. If his situation was identical but he was (verifiably) 15 years old, I'd have nothing but compliments for him.

Lets us end all diplomatic relations and would stop student exchange programs. We have a lot of Americans students going to school in Kenya, they participate in sports, they win basketball games and set records in Kenya. There are people who hold this universe together, those are the open minded folks who work hard day in and day out to better relations between nations and then there those who don't understand international relations and the benefits of it, those are the people who are quick to hate on citizens of other nations. There are consequences of broken diplomacy and luck of international relations, North Korea is just an example. Cheserek is a fruit of good relations between the US and Kenya. If you do not like foreign students then you don't like foreigners hence you hate the peace and stability that you enjoy when you travel around the world. There are policies that govern international students, they do not just dropped from the sky, there are laws set by the Governments involved, there are educational requirements, financial requirements, etc, The Visa that is issued is issued on behalf of the US people and it means a lot. Those who hate international students participating in sports and other activities, you need to change the law.

Craig,

I have a lot of respect for what you accomplished as an athlete, but I see your statement as a thinly veiled discrediting of the H.S. NBI performances, which unfortunately I have seen you do before.

I have seen athletes run incredible times in all types of situations, cold, heat, rain, wind, cinder tracks, 160m unbanked indoor tracks, etc.

2004 Golden West Invitational Girl's mile, I recall over half the field running under 4:50, certainly one of the most competitive h.s. girl’s mile races ever and at that same meet, Caitlin Chock ran a 9:58 2-mile. It was 90+ temps, by midday. Also, in 1999 the GWI had at that time perhaps the most competitive 2 miler ever, with the 1st 8 athletes running under 9 minutes and the temp was in the mid 90 at the time of that race. I think Pre ran some of his best H.S. times in the rain and Huston McTear in the late 70s ran 10.2 setting the H.S. 100m record on a dirt track, the record he broke was as run an a rubber track. McTear subsequently runs under 10.2 on a rubber track. I remember when the Millrose Games mile would produce the fastest indoor mile in the U.S. for H.S. and elites. Not counting the fact that the track is supposed to be slow and the meet comes very early in the season. Certainty, all of the factors you point out make a difference, but if you are determined to run fast, you can run fast in almost any circumstances.

A few things:

- Lukas did most of his training during one of the worst winners in recorded history and spent part of his 5k and 2 mile running around lapped runners, hey, but I guess those things don’t matter.

- Lukas is the average age a of H.S. senior, which is how he classifies himself and could have come back for another H.S. season, but he choose to work his butt off so that he could finish school early.

- Edward Cheserk is a legitimate U.S. H.S. student and yes like Lukas was last year, he is a year older than his grade. He didn’t just step from out of the bush, he spent most of his life in an Orphanage and his age is pretty well documented.

Perpective:

Who knows what Bobby Jones could have shot if he had rangefinders, swing analyzers, titanium alloy heads and hex aerodynamics dual core balls. I would like to say he could have been even better, but perhaps not, because athletes adapt to requirements of their circumstances. The modern athletes in any sport has many advantages, but you can assume that if you gave those same advantages to the legends that they would be even greater legends…it just doesn’t work that way. Most of the middle and distance records on the 160m Millrose track were set many decades ago, when those record were set, the athletes did not think they couldn’t run fast. I think Mark Decker ran close to 4 flat in the 1500m on that track over 30 years ago, which would be a competitive run on the fastest outdoor track.

My son is away at college now, but he use to complain to no end about having to cut the lawn using our 60" zero-turn riding mower. I enjoyed telling him that I use to cut an even bigger lawn with a much smaller push mower, but now that I have taken back over the mowing…it is still a pain in the butt. The point is, I don’t take anything away from the mower I used as a child because that was all I knew and I don’t take anything away the only mower my son’s has known as well...either way, you have to put in the work.

I figured :)

It was the abbreviation of HS and US that did it for me. Something that idiosyncratic would probably be consistent in both posts if it were the same person. Especially because Virgin does it every time.

But boy, you two sure like that ellipses...

Not sure how what Craig wrote ended up on this message board. It's nothing more than a reply to an e-mail from another member of a small mailing group of 30 or so people, of which I am one. We have similar roots and each member of the group, whether a former high school, collegiate, national, international, World Champion or Olympic medalist caliber athlete, simply enjoys discussing various aspects of the sport.

KUKIMBIA wrote:

Not sure how what Craig wrote ended up on this message board. It's nothing more than a reply to an e-mail from another member of a small mailing group of 30 or so people, of which I am one. We have similar roots and each member of the group, whether a former high school, collegiate, national, international, World Champion or Olympic medalist caliber athlete, simply enjoys discussing various aspects of the sport.

I was wondering where the hell this was from. It reads like a private email.

Yeah, and Mr. Cheserek, for as cool as he is, was selected to be sponsored because of anything other then his running ability? Give me a break. What about the kid who were as needy (i.e. all of them in that area) who weren't good runners? I guess they just weren't poor enough? Take a trip to our own backyard, i.e. southern Arkansas, or Southwest U.S. if you are looking to "make a impact on poverty and opportunity", oh, but I guess they don't run fast enough.

The thing that bothers me, is that it seems every time this occurs the kid just so happens to be a good runner. Go figure.

Look, I think that we all know that he got here because he has talent. Is that his fault? But it is also true that his situation was pretty dire. Again, good for him for taking the opportunities that have availed themselves to improve his lot in life.

ChuckEcheeser wrote:

...

The thing that bothers me, is that it seems every time this occurs the kid just so happens to be a good runner. Go figure.

Ummmmm...Did it ever occur to you that many, many others are sponsored but that you never hear of them (and apparently don't even know they exist) because they are not super athletes?

Go figure indeed.

I think Taylor was really wrong to post this if it was him. I first met Craig Virgin 38 years ago and he has always spoken his mind. His opinion was meant to be shared among his friends and not everyone on LetsRun. Craig was among the first college runners to have their legacy diminished by the presence of a Kenyan superstar. He is sensitive to older runners because Eric Hulst broke all of his HS class 2 Mile records while being older for his grade.

In the interest of full disclosure Craig was always my running hero and I basically memorized his times from essentially every race between his 9:31 freshmen class record to his 13:58.2 against the Russians in Odessa back when people used to congregate around the stadium to get a shot at a pair of American blue jeans. (and can still recite chapter and verse-BTW CV gave himself an extra 2 seconds for his 1972 US/USSR dual meet it was 14:14.6 for the world age 16 record and the 19 year old Russians double teamed him.)

That being said he would have said the same things to a reporter and they would have been just as inappropriate for public consumption. Personally, I forgive him his comparing himself to the young guys since he wouldn't have let them beat him had a 17 year old CV been in there with them. But the truth is that at some point he has to acknowledge others' accomplishments without placing conditions on them. LV is a great runner, perhaps not quite as good as Craig in longer distances, but clearly faster than him (which he did acknowledge) Virgin isn't going to change since he hasn't since I first knew him. He wasn't happy about a middle aged Henry Rono suddenly appearing at WSU during his Junior year and wished he could have been able to run in an open 2 Mile race like Nelson did at the Sunkist Invitational when he took down Virgin's 8:40.9.

Noone can be surprised by Craig's opinions on Edward Cheserek, they go back to 1975. His pet peeves are overage foreign athletes in the US and Jimmy Carter's boycott which are the two things that kept him from being #1A to Pre's #1. No one worked harder than CV to earn his reputation and I wish that his "friends" on the mailing list would just let him speak among friends who know and understand him rather than on a public message board.

ChuckEcheeser wrote:

Yeah, and Mr. Cheserek, for as cool as he is, was selected to be sponsored because of anything other then his running ability? Give me a break. What about the kid who were as needy (i.e. all of them in that area) who weren't good runners? I guess they just weren't poor enough? Take a trip to our own backyard, i.e. southern Arkansas, or Southwest U.S. if you are looking to "make a impact on poverty and opportunity", oh, but I guess they don't run fast enough.

The thing that bothers me, is that it seems every time this occurs the kid just so happens to be a good runner. Go figure.

How would you ever hear about any of the other kids from foreign countries, if they weren't nationally-recognized runners?

I'm sure there are thousands of foreign kids 'sponsored' in the US who aren't athletes at all - how would you ever hear about them? There might be one living on your street, but unless they're nationally-recognized for something, you wouldn't know they even existed, would you?

records should be by age classification, in general I agree with CV!

wtf??? wrote:

Aron Taylor, who thinks he can post anything, anywhere, posted it.

Ho Hum wrote:

I was wondering where the hell this was from. It reads like a private email.

Thanks, I am flattered. I did post this :)

okely dokely wrote:

Why does he separate every thought with an ellipsis?? Can Virgin not form a complete sentence? That was almost unreadable.

It is a rarely known fact that Craig is a big fan of Louis-Ferdinand Céline.

By the way, I knew Craig when he was at the top, and ran into him in 96/Atlanta.

He's a class act and a nice guy, so lay off. Writing is not an exact science...as we all know you can't read tone or face expressions in an email/web article.

Anyone, who knew or knows Craig, knows that this bashing says far more about you than it does CV.

Virgin always fails to mention that at his best, he was only the second fastest high school 2-miler. Lindgren's 8;40 indoors on an 11 lap/mile track was the fastest until 1979.

I graduated HS in 1981 when Virgin was a National Name all over the high school arena. I could only dream of running like that. Look, Ive said it before and I'll say it again..high school records need to be accomplished at the high school level only. Forget about class group whatever! if youre 19 and under, it falls in as a junior record, PERIOD! in todays world, you break a record running against the world elites outside a high school meet then it falls under a "Junior" record. You want to set a record for high school? then compete against the high school only and establish the record. Alan Webb could NEVER run under a 4 min. mile without the help of the elite class to push him. Nor could anyone else. Jim Ryun! the only kid to step up in an all HS meet and break a 4 min. mile. Now thats a record! I feel the same way with rabbits. Pleasssse...just give a guy an EPO sample...giving someone a rabbit is the same thing to me. You cant do it on your own, then give it up!. When L.V. ran that downhill mile in 3:56 or something, really?! give me a break! When German set the 2mile record- he did it on his own! without a rabbit, without the elites. HE DID IT! Now thats something to talk about. 8:34 by himself! in the 2 mile. All this talk of breaking these records with pacers, rabbits, world class meets is just another astrick*** next to a name in my book. Then again, Im old school.