Do I have a shot at four minutes?

Do NOT listen to anyone saying you need sub 50 speed or super-talent plus perfect coaching. I sincerely hope that guy is just being a typical LR jerk and doesn't actually believe that.

I ran under 4:00 twice. Once in college when I had decent speed (maybe 51), once several years later when I could barely break 26 with a running start (up to top speed before hitting the starting line), severely tying up at the end. I can only guess at my 400 speed the second time, which I would realistically estimate at 54-55 (truthfully, I have doubts that I could have gone under 55). I don't consider myself super-talented OR perfectly coached, let alone both.

What you need is consistency and a few years on a solid plan. Personally, I would recommend you work on *maintaining* (or trying to maintain) your current speed and improving your endurance. Of course there are no guarantees but I would certainly say you have a shot, I mean you're still very young and depending on your schedule, you've got a lot of time to do it.

I would be more than happy to share my experiences and training with you if you drop your email.

He's right if you can run 51 you could break 4 mins. Doesn't mean you will though especially if you are 800m type

Have a look here - miles are not listed so convert the 1500m + check their mile pb's

http://www.thepowerof10.info/rankings/rankinglist.aspx?event=1500&agegroup=ALL&sex=M&year=2010

Examples:

http://www.thepowerof10.info/athletes/profile.aspx?athleteid=1602

http://www.thepowerof10.info/athletes/profile.aspx?athleteid=6618

I am another poster who has dreams of sub 4 after college and would love to hear your story! Please post it!

I know not sub 4:00, but my best friend ran 4:02 and he swears he couldn't have broken 1:55 at the time. He was a 14:flat/8:low 5k/3k guy.

You can definitely break 4:00 off of 1:54 speed if you're strong... and that looks to be the problem if you look at your 5k.

If you can keep your speed at its current level, and get the 5k to under 14:10, you'll have a shot.

E-mail me if you want some advice.

tequilla?

Tequila could work..

I agree I need to improve my 5k although it isn't really representative of the shape I was in at the time. I've only ran about four or five 5ks on the track. That pr was in 25 mph wind and going out in 5:00. It was the only 5k I didn't run a 1500 prior to.

For those of you wanting to send stuff through email feel free. I would appreciate advice from those who have done it.

chmbio@hotmail.com

Although I never broke 4 I got pretty close (ok technically not a mile but I did get a 3.43 1500m). I also have a lot of experience of training with guys who have run well under 4 minutes.

My thoughts are that the OP certainly has a realistic shot at it given his range of pb's and what I perceive to be a lack of consistency in his training. As for the speed - he has plenty. I went 1.50 in the 800 but never broke 51 for 400, and was actually of a similar level over 3K / 5K, but slower over 10K (best of 31.47 on the road).

My advice would be to ignore those saying that he needs to bring down his undersistance times, or conversely improve his overdistance performances. Instead he needs focus on his goal and developing the specific endurance needed to run 4 laps at 59. He may not need to change mileage or get in the weight room at all as I see being suggested. Rather he needs to use the right sessions that develop his ability to maintain the required speed for long enough. Although I wouldnt necessarily recommend the approach to training, read Roger Bannisters book. He clearly identified the requirements of his goal and then trained specifically for these.

I am specifically referring to your 49:X/1:49 comment. Sure it would be nice to have this speed, but there have been many sub-4 milers who were not nearly that fast. A college friend of mine was a sub 3:57 miler and never broke 1:51 for 800. The OP definitely has the tools to approach sub 4 with the assets he currently holds.

Lenny Leonard wrote:

Sir, please list the names of any sub-4:00 runners you know of that could not break 1:53 in the mile.

it just is not possible for him to run a 3:59 mile if his 400m and 800m do not improve.

riley masters ran a 1:54 then the next weekend ran 3:59. its been done before.

UW wrote:

My thoughts are that the OP certainly has a realistic shot at it given his range of pb's and what I perceive to be a lack of consistency in his training.

I somewhat agree with this, but really only during my senior year and for reasons I couldn't control. I was one of the more dedicated runners on my team and didn't miss runs. I followed my coaches plan completely and it worked pretty well for me. My senior season was ruined by untimely sickness, a lot of stress, and some tendonitis that brought me down to an avg of 25 mpw during indoor. Plus I had to do over half my workouts alone at whatever time I could fit them in because of large time demands from school.

oldwise wrote:

I am specifically referring to your 49:X/1:49 comment. Sure it would be nice to have this speed, but there have been many sub-4 milers who were not nearly that fast. A college friend of mine was a sub 3:57 miler and never broke 1:51 for 800. The OP definitely has the tools to approach sub 4 with the assets he currently holds.

Interesting. Could you share with us who this college friend was?

Remember, Hicham El Guerroug (sp) never broke 1:50 for 800.

Listen gang, my post was directed to the OP, not to every person trying to break 4:00 in the mile.

The OP has been at 4:08 or slower for two years. Obviously, this guy's coach has been focusing on getting him to run a faster mile, and it hasn't worked. When I look at his other PRs, I think it is painfully obvious that he just isn't fast enough to run the mile in 3:59.

I'm not going to try and belittle your accomplishments, you are a much greater runner than I will ever be. Despite your own view of your talents, if a guy can break 4:00 while only able to run 54-55 for the open 400m, then that is super-talented. If a 51-sec guy had that kind of endurance, then he would be running sub 3:50 at worst. I'm sorry, man, but either you must admit that you could have ran much, much faster than 55 in the 400m when you ran that second sub-4:00, or else come to grips with the fact that you displayed perhaps the greatest mile endurance in the history of the sport and fell very short of your potential.

And as for people claiming to have run sub-4:00 without having the ability to run sub-1:55, that's bull.

If you're really trying to help the OP, you need to 1.) respect that a sub-4:00 is a magnificently significant accomplishment even if you yourself have achieved it, 2.) It requires a combination of natural SPEED as well as ENDURANCE, and 3.) You need more than a "consistent" training plan when you have been at the same level of fitness or slower for two years.

There are probably 20,000+ guys in the country at least that can run a 400m in 55. Maybe 0.1% run sub-4:00 per year.

old military vet wrote:

riley masters ran a 1:54 then the next weekend ran 3:59. its been done before.

Eh, here are the results of the 800 in question:

1 1 Masters, Riley SO-2 Maine 1:54.60 5

2 2 Turner, Kevin FR-1 Holy Cross 2:01.00 3

3 3 Lynch, Justin FR-1 Maine 2:04.37 2

4 Conley, Tom Unattached 2:04.70 -

5 4 Brink, Benjamin SO-2 Holy Cross 2:04.76 1

6 5 Poles, Nicholas FR-1 Holy Cross 2:04.90 -

7 Englehutt, Dave Unattached 2:05.71

This race tells us nothing about Masters 800 fitness on that day. He could have been in 1:53.5 shape or he could have been in 1:50.0 shape, there is no way to know when you beat everyone by 7 seconds and it is obviously a solo run from the gun.

If you ran 3x400 in 52, 53, 53 then you are fast enough. I coached a guy who maxed out at 1:51 for 800m, but could run 3:41/3:59.

You need speed-endurance - the tough intervals like 600-1000m. That's the tough stuff that will carry you through from 900m - 1400m in the mile. Keep your leg turnover up with drills and strides often and yes the little stuff like core adds up. Fractions of a second, it all adds up.

Go for it while you can, but have a plan. Also doing stuff like 1000m and 1200m time trials where you go out a bit slower and then hammer the last 300m are good too. Like 61-61-57 or 1:31-56, etc. And :35-:50 hills are speedwork in disguise!

Just some thoughts. You run plenty of miles though, 70 or so is good enough for the mile if your quality and recovery is right.

Go for it man, you'll never regret it! The mile is magical!

Silly Old Fossil wrote:

Remember, Hicham El Guerroug (sp) never broke 1:50 for 800.

Hicham El Guerrouj ran 1:47 for the 800m and 2:16 for the 1000m (worth about a 1:44). Both ran three season before his WR season.

Tons of people have broken 4:00 with PRs of 1:51/1:52, but very very few have PRs of 1:54.x. Maybe those couple of seconds would help him out, but it would be difficult to simultaneously drop his 800m time by 2 seconds while concurrently improving his endurance for the mile. This is obviously a lot easier for guys in college whose times are trending faster year after year.

Look at it this way:

Your Friend: 1:51/3:57 = 46.8%

The OP: 1:54/4:08 = 45.9%

So the OP would either need to improve his speed to 3:59 X 45.9% = 1:49.7

OR

He would have to improve his endurance to 1:54/3:59 = 47.7%.

That kind of endurance is like a 1:50 guy going 3:50.6. I think we can all agree that every guy in the world who runs 3:50 can run under 1:50. Until I see evidence otherwise, I will say that it is impossible.

Sorry, the point of that post is that he needs to improve in both areas to break 4:00. I think he could possibly do it, I just think it would be a bit wiser to either work on one or the other at first rather than try and improve both at once. Maybe drop the 800m down to sub-1:53, then start really working on the endurance. Or do the endurance work until you are in the 4:04 range, then give speed some serious attention.

Lenny Leonard wrote:

...

There are probably 20,000+ guys in the country at least that can run a 400m in 55. Maybe 0.1% run sub-4:00 per year.

FYI, 311m people in the USA, so 20,000 people is .00006%, and there are probably 40 people at the most who could currently run sub 4, which is .0000001% of the population.

Do you happen to coach in the south east?

To OP: From a past sub-4 miler, you've got the tools, no doubt. Most telling is your 400 speed.

My take would be you don't need more speed, you need more strength. Most telling looks to be your ommition of tempo/longer intervals in the early spring.

I know you said your 5k is maybe not a true reflection of ability, but incorporate the longer stuff you're doing in x-country season into your spring regime and target a good early spring 5k w/ good competition. Then play around with a few 800s (3-4) in the early season whilst still incorporating some good tempo efforts and longer intervals (mile repeats or longer). The early season 800s might be ugly and feel horrible, but I think you'll be surprised when you start getting to your competitive/end of season races what kind of 800 speed you've developed and how that will translate to the mile/1500.

I'm not talking tons of long intervals and tempos. Maybe alternating a tempo run with a longer interval session every other week: so 1 tempo/month, 1 longer interval session (mile repeats or longer)/month.

Don't underestimate how additional strength could translate to "speed." A miler's "speed" in something like an 800 typically comes from the ability to go out reasonably fast--and then slow down less than your competitors over the final 200-300.

I never ran under 51 in the 400 (a few 51-points with running starts), but ended up with a 1:46 PR in the 800. I'd come through in 52-mid in Dave Wottle style about 15-20 meters off the pace feeling like I was nearly all-out, and then walk people down the last 150. I looked incredibly fast on the final straight, but my strength enabled me to rig less than everyone else.

Also, it takes some time to develop and find your sweet spot doing more strength in the spring. Maybe a season or two, so you need the patience to see it through.

Best of luck to you.