If Guelph were in the NCAA, where would they be ranked?

with proudfoot's and nixon's xc form (or his track 10k) you could say they are low 14 guys as well. brett has run low 14, boorsma and genest are sub 14 guys (his 827 steeple would have won NCAAs). this team is for real.

I'm another who thinks it's tough to compare, because the eligibility rules are decidedly different (though I actually think most of G's runners would be unaffected).

Will Simon Fraser finally be an NCAA team next year? (I believe they will in football, but don't know about other sports.) How do they stack up, Canada-wide?

Have them petition the NCAA they could probably get in. They would have to follow rules then. Unless they take the Ivory League route and just pretend not to offer athletic scholarships.

This is the point at hand. Guelph's top 3 runners would not be eligible in the NCAA (Brett, Boorsma and Geneste). Therefore they are left with Proudfoot, Nixon, Jackson. I'm unsure if Mosher, Koziarski or Murray would be eligible either since they are all in their 5th year.

A team without these 3 is not an NCAA ranked team....not even close....most likely not even regionally ranked.

The same goes with their women; Laurie and Cliff would not be eligible.

Alabama whose 25th in the nation, their #5 runner has a pr of 14:01. Their #4 is a 29:10 guy

Then Bama is seriously underperforming in XC. I assume their top three have all run faster than 29:10?.... considering 28:57 was what, fourth at NCAAs?

I don't think anyone (Other than the most delusional canadians) is trying to argue that Guelph is a top 10 team. To say that they are garbage and could not possibly make nationals is not being fair to them at all, either (of course you need to include their top 3 even though they would be inelegible... just assume they redshirted one season).

The one thing guelph lacks right now is depth (not in a CIS sense...Jackson is more than capable with an 18th at OUAs) but their fifth guy would kill them at NCAAs. Proudfoot is a freshman and is in way better shape than his 14:43 from early this summer. American Freshman that are ~9:00 two milers finish relatively well at NCAAs all the time when they improve rapidly at the new school. Proudfoot was training out of Sudbury in high school for petes sake! (no knock against track north... they certainly had him in good shape if he was winning OFSAA medals). Nixon, on the other hand, probably is still a 14:4X guy right now and would weigh down the team score a lot. The guys behind him are definite back of the packers as well. He is better at cross but I wouldn't say hes much better than his 30:26 10000m from earlier this summer right now.

To say that they are garbage and could not possibly make nationals is not being fair to them at all, either (of course you need to include their top 3 even though they would be inelegible... just assume they redshirted one season).

They certainly are not garbage but it's wishful thinking to put them as a team that would be going for a bid to the NCAA meet. Geneste is simply too old (granted...Kenyans are probably too old...but that shouldn't be allowed either). It's also inappropriate to assume redshirt years....most coaches in the NCAA simply wouldn't give a redshirt year to a healthy athlete on scholarship that has the potential to score...and Guelph would not be deep enough to sit out any of their top 5 if they were trying to be competitive in the NCAA. Most redshirts go to freshmen who have potential later but aren't ready to score yet....or to injured athletes. From what I can see...Guelph's top 5 would be Proudfoot, Nixon, Mosher, Jackson, and then a toss up for their 5th guy. Still a solid top team in the CIS...but definitely not a team that has any hope of an NCAA bid.

Regardless, DST is KING!

I do follow that in ncaa the top 3 runners technically wouldnt eligible.Canada you do get five years of eligibility but if you race xc that counts as a full season. ( only xc = xc and track) known of the top 3 runners for Guelph have red shirted a season. Genest might be a little older but boorsma and brett are twenty two i Believe not unreasonably age for a senior university student.

GlobalView wrote:

How old are their guys? Dont you have 5 yrs in the canadian system? Would they even be eligible in the NCAA?

You're right that Genest wouldn't be eligible for an NCAA school. He's 24.

-- wrote:

Genest is in his fifth year of university education, he is a year younger than Lee Emmanuel who was eligible to run last year and also a year younger than Sam Chelanga and Barnabas Kurui who are eligible to run this year.

[ I do follow that in ncaa the top 3 runners technically wouldnt eligible.Canada you do get five years of eligibility but if you race xc that counts as a full season. ( only xc = xc and track) known of the top 3 runners for Guelph have red shirted a season. Genest might be a little older but boorsma and brett are twenty two i Believe not unreasonably age for a senior university student. ]

Is this English? Abbreviations and shorthand are one thing, but you sound like a full on retard.

guelph is dusty wrote:

This is the point at hand. Guelph's top 3 runners would not be eligible in the NCAA (Brett, Boorsma and Geneste). Therefore they are left with Proudfoot, Nixon, Jackson. I'm unsure if Mosher, Koziarski or Murray would be eligible either since they are all in their 5th year.

A team without these 3 is not an NCAA ranked team....not even close....most likely not even regionally ranked.

The same goes with their women; Laurie and Cliff would not be eligible.

Wrong on Brett and Genest, both are in their fourth season of XC eligibility. Brett redshirted his second year after transferring from Villanova and Genest redshirted last year after transferring from Sherbrooke. Given that Boorsma was injured the summer leading into his freshman year it is not unreasonable to assume that if he only had four years of eligibility that DST would have not run him in cross that year. Mosher is only in his third year of eligibility as he sat out the last two and Murray sat out cross country three years ago with a broken back.

TerryMan wrote:

Have them petition the NCAA they could probably get in. They would have to follow rules then. Unless they take the Ivory League route and just pretend not to offer athletic scholarships.

wtf is the ivory league?

Lee Emmanuel received an exemption because he was "training for a major championship". There's lots of rules like that and I'm sure Chelanga and Kurui have similar ones. I'm unsure when Genest started university or if he did CEGEP in Quebec and how that would be treated by the NCAA clearinghouse. But he was born in 1986 and if he followed a normal schedule...he would have started university in 2004 (or CEGEP). Another NCAA rule is that you must use the eligibility within 5 years from the date you started post secondary education (unless you get a medical exemption etc.).

Read the NCAA rules. Being in the 4th year of eligibility is only one component. Brett would be OK if that is the case. However Genest is probably still out. Murray would barely walk on to a ranked NCAA program. Cut the what if BS...Boorsma is in his 5th year and we don't have time machines.

It's no bash to Guelph, they're great guys and the gold standard of running in Canada. Be realistic in that this team is playing by different rules and is most definitely not a top 20 NCAA team.

Best team that doesn't give out athletic scholarships, I bet.

loopholes wrote:

Lee Emmanuel received an exemption because he was "training for a major championship". There's lots of rules like that and I'm sure Chelanga and Kurui have similar ones. I'm unsure when Genest started university or if he did CEGEP in Quebec and how that would be treated by the NCAA clearinghouse. But he was born in 1986 and if he followed a normal schedule...he would have started university in 2004 (or CEGEP). Another NCAA rule is that you must use the eligibility within 5 years from the date you started post secondary education (unless you get a medical exemption etc.).

Olivier Collin, who did three years of CEGEP is currently a freshman at Fresno State as is Olivier Bernard, who also did three years.

Similarly Arianne Raby is listed as a Sophmore at Indiana despite the fact she competed in CEGEP for three years and then ran for Indiana last year.

Based on these three examples it appears the NCAA does not consider CEGEP to be the start of University.

Back to the original question my guess is that Guelph would be 10th-15th. Jeff Scull ran 30:38 on the same course the Guelph guys ran on last year at Canadian Nationals, a week after running 30:32 at NCAAs. So if you call the two courses roughly equally Guelph would score fairly similar to Syracuse who were 14th last year.

14. 405 Syracuse ( 30:56 2:34:37)

==========================================================

1 34 649 Tito Medrano SO 8:51 15:05 24:18 30:21

2 47 654 Jeff Scull SR 8:46 14:57 24:17 30:32

3 95 651 Forrest Misenti FR 8:50 15:11 24:43 31:07

4 97 645 Dan Busby SR 8:51 15:15 24:52 31:08

5 132 647 Griff Graves SO 8:52 15:14 24:55 31:29

6 (134) 646 Patrick Dupont SO 8:50 15:15 24:59 31:31

7 (191) 650 Brad Miller SR 8:48 15:08 25:24 32:56 :)

Thanks for that info on CEGEP examples. It's one of the weird kind of exceptions that probably no one thinks about. So that potentially leaves Genest...although him being 24...I have no idea what clearinghouse would rule on that..it seems every case is different. Also how some of the Guelph guys run for NB in the summer...that would probably violate the amateurism rule. Any quest for gold athlete would also forfeit elig...although if Guelph were NCAA then all of these athletes would never accept that money or rep NB. Further, every conference has different rules regarding participation like the IVY league for instance. Regardless, despite any argument, Guelph is a great team with great guys, fantastic coaches, and continues to own Canadian running, so props to that.

I guess I conclude by saying that comparing Guelph to an NCAA team is like comparing apples and oranges...it's the same sport but governed by totally different rules. On top of that, the resources available are so vastly different that one has to commend Guelph for competing with teams that have $$ coming out of their ass.