Should I do fast 200's during base?

Why do you think they're made up? He seems to at least imply that this was an actual runner.

I also wouldn't look at this as being a major workout. It's only a bit more intense than strides, and lots of people do the same strides/hill repeats every week.

I don't believe in old Hadd and his wannabe guru writing.

If you want a real guru, ask malmo. He isn't a wannabe, he's the real deal. I don't agree with everything he says, but he gives consistent advice, year after year.

Why do you think Hadd doesn't post under that name anymore? Because he knows he has to be more careful with people like me around. The real gurus don't have that worry.

Maybe he got tired of some people.

Maybe he realized his writing was somewhat careless? See above quote for details.

Tuna bro from Jersey Sho wrote:

Lydiard said it was a mistake to run anerobically during base.

Im debating wheter to do a weekly workout os something like 5x200m with full recovery during base...my goal is 800m/mile next summer.

Would people recommend this or should I stick to aerobic running?

You should do the 5 x 200 to work on basic speed during the base phase but you should do it such that it is actually working on speed development and such that it is not an anaerobic interval workout because Lydiard was right, you don't want to do anaerobic work during base phase because it will interfere with your aerobic development.

To work on speed development you have to run fast. To run fast it has to be something between 40 and 200. Anything longer than 200 will be too slow and do nothing for speed development. To run fast you need to do 10 or less of them. 20 x 200 will do nothing to improve your speed because you will be going too slow.

To work on basic speed development you need full recovery between each one. For some people that means nothing faster than a walk back recovery. For some people it is a walk/jog. For some people it is a very slow jog. For some extremely aerobically fit people they can do 5 x 200 or 10 x 100 with a jog recovery and be completely recovered. If a less fit person tries to do that, they won't be fully recovered and therefore they won't be able to run fast enough to stimulate any improvement in speed. Also it will turn into an anaerobic interval workout which you don't want to do during the base phase.

Most high school and college coaches neglect true speed development. Why? For 2 reasons, aerobic development is much more important for a middle distance/distance runner and while speed can be improved it can be improved only so much so they don't bother working on it. However, if you want to reach your full potential, you should be working on speed development most of the year because if you don't you will severely resrict your potential in the middle distances.

Some coaches have runners do "striders" or race pace repeat 100s. This is a good thing because it neurologically work the legs muscles so they don't forget how to run fast again during the base phase and lessens risk of a muscle pull during the first interval workout or race. While it is good to do this, it will do nothing to actually improve your basic speed because you are not running fast enough to stress your legs to force them to adapt and get faster.

If you read Lydiard's final book which was geared for masters runners. He had them do 10 x 100 with walk back recovery during base phase. He did this because he knows most masters lose tremendous amount of speed over the decades, not from running slow mileage, but neglect of ever working on raw speed. When you neglect on working on speed for decades you will be shocked how slow you get.

So Lydiard would have no problem with you doing 5 x 200 during the base period provided you are fully recovered between each 200 so that it isn't a anaerobic interval workout. Fully recovered may mean a walk, walk/jog, slow jog or if estremely fit, a regular jog.

Just some personal experience here: in my youth I had very little speed - 26.5 in college - but never made any deliberate attempts to develop speed. We used to do 8x200 or 10x150 for about 4 weeks at the end of each track season and thought it was "pure speed"!

After many years off, I am now 44 and making a conscious effort to redevelop some speed, while still training for 3k and up. In the past summer I came down from 30ish to just under 27 for 200. A large part of this was down to doing real speedwork with a sprint coach (although injuries stopped this at a couple of points). It has been quite an eye-opener, and I am really looking forward to doing the right things all winter- weights and speed maintenance - and maybe even running a lifetime PB over 200.

Some observations:

1. Sprinters can do sessions like 3x40m and put full effort into it. However, most of the distance types take a few seconds to work out what to do with their limbs and go through a 'learning curve' on the first few reps - maybe as we spend the rest of the week going so much more slowly. I commonly do 100s with a jogging start in 16, 15, 14 then 13. When they stop getting faster, it's time to go home, or move onto the main reps session if it's before some intervals.

2. You need to get mentally 'set' for each rep. It's impossible to be in the middle of a 5 mile run and just 'turn on' full speed - that tends to produce 3k pace, not 200m pace. If tacking reps onto a run, stop, rest, do some speed drills, visualise, get psyched, and take a rep or two to work into it.

3. It is strongly recommended to take 3 minutes rest between efforts. This apparently lets the phosphocreatine regenerate, and it makes sure you

4. I think it's good to alternate hills and flat track work. Hills have a wonderful effect on your form and can be found more easily than tracks.

5. Repeat 200s are not pure speed, they are speed-endurance for 400 running. They will make you more tired for your normal training the next day and more likely to cramp up and strain something.

6. When I'm feeling a bit tired from mileage, the speed session is very invigorating and tends to wake up my whole nervous system. It seems to work better than a day off.

I'd be curious to see if others share the same impressions as me...

captainrobbo wrote:

6. When I'm feeling a bit tired from mileage, the speed session is very invigorating and tends to wake up my whole nervous system. It seems to work better than a day off.

I'd be curious to see if others share the same impressions as me...

Ditto. I've done hundreds of 70+ mile weeks, and the ones that seem to go the most smoothly are the ones with max speed workouts (track or hills) at least twice a week. It just seems to reset the body somehow.

Really enjoyable thread, folks. Thanks to all contributors!

[quote]captainrobbo wrote:

the speed session is very invigorating and tends to wake up my whole nervous system[quote]

You've lost me as to what your speed session is.

3x 40 with 3 minute rests?