Jack Daniels the Overestimator

Think of VDOT as a fitness level, not as a VO2Max measure.

VDOT is a handy way of figuring out paces for workouts, and is based on your current fitness level. I've always seen VDOT as an OVERALL measurement of your fitness level, not just a VO2Max measure, and a way to equate performances in races of differing lengths.

For example, say you run a 16:00 3 mile. VDOT=62. An equivalent performance might be a 10:27 2-mile. And, that VDOT # then lets me sort out paces for workouts (62 VDOT = 5:40 Tempo pace, :73/400m Repeat pace, and :79/400m Interval pace).

I don't care what your VO2MAX number is. What I care about is how fast your workouts should be run, based on recent performances, and that's how VDOT should be used.

Apologies to Dr. Jack if I'm doing it wrong, but it makes total sense to me. My HS kids aren't going to be strapped on to a VO2Max machine anyway, so I couldn't care less what their actual VO2MAX number is. I want to know how fast they are. If I were coaching college or pros, then the VO2MAX info might be useful, but at the high school level? I've got kids who can't afford shoes - I've never even thought about the luxury of a VO2MAX test. I'm just looking for useful info about workout pacing, and knowing every kid's VDOT does just that.

/has all VDOT info laid out in Excel spreadsheets for Easy, Tempo, Interval, Repeat, and Fast Reps workouts. Plug in a recent race effort, get a VDOT from it, and voila! Here's your workout pace.

You've got it right. If some of these other idiots would actually read Daniels, they might begin to understand and appreciate it. VDOT is absolutely a great way to get workout paces based on recent race times (not based on V02 Max).

Apologies to Dr. Jack if I'm doing it wrong, but it makes total sense to me. My HS kids aren't going to be strapped on to a VO2Max machine anyway, so I couldn't care less what their actual VO2MAX number is. I want to know how fast they are. If I were coaching college or pros, then the VO2MAX info might be useful, but at the high school level? I've got kids who can't afford shoes - I've never even thought about the luxury of a VO2MAX test. I'm just looking for useful info about workout pacing, and knowing every kid's VDOT does just that.

/has all VDOT info laid out in Excel spreadsheets for Easy, Tempo, Interval, Repeat, and Fast Reps workouts. Plug in a recent race effort, get a VDOT from it, and voila! Here's your workout pace.

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AMEN, BROTHER! AMEN!

eurodonkey wrote:

wellnow wrote:

So why have a Vdot figure at all?

The whole Vdot concept is rendered meaningless by the number of physiological variables.

You have the figure PRECISELY to get away from all the physiological variables. Actually I kind of wish he had multiplied them by about 1.15 and told people they were scores out of 100. He's saying your training paces should be in proportion to your current speed. This is not rocket science, it's bleedin' obvious.

I agree with your comment about changing the scale to something else, although it couldn't really be a scale of 0-100, since it doesn't make much sense to have an upper performance limit.

I believe that Jack's decision to use VDOT figures that are approximately correlated with the widely quoted figures for VO2 max (normalized for body mass and expressed in ml/kg/min) has the very unfortunate effect of confusing people even further about the concept of VO2 max and further elevating what is a largely useless measurement in the minds of unsophisticated readers (which includes at least 90% of people with university degrees in exercise physiology).

To the OP:

Why are you concerned about your VO2 max? The point is to get fitter, faster, and the way to do that is to perform workouts appropriate to your fitness level as revealed by current racing times. VDOT is a method of determining what those training paces are. OP seems to see VO2 max as the end in itself, rather than a factor, among many in performance fitness, which IS the point, unless I am sadly misinformed. Given VDOT or some similar tool for determining apprpriate training paces, one can achieve optimal development of racing fitness as shown by racing results.That being the case, why would anyone care to have his VO2 tested? What are you going to DO with that information? BTW, VO2 max used to be approximately inferred by race times. Good enough for me. Race times were what I was interested in, regardless of its constituent parts.

HS Coach #92832 wrote:

Apologies to Dr. Jack if I'm doing it wrong, but it makes total sense to me. My HS kids aren't going to be strapped on to a VO2Max machine anyway, so I couldn't care less what their actual VO2MAX number is. I want to know how fast they are. If I were coaching college or pros, then the VO2MAX info might be useful, but at the high school level? I've got kids who can't afford shoes - I've never even thought about the luxury of a VO2MAX test. I'm just looking for useful info about workout pacing, and knowing every kid's VDOT does just that..

You had me until here...VO2max is basically useless as a training tool. Vdot however can be extremely useful That's all Vdot is -- a number correlating to a performance that helps give appropriate paces for training. Even if you had the means to give all your athletes VO2max tests, the number you get would be ineffectual at best for if you tried to substitute it for Vdot.

The best way to figure out how to train is to see how well you race, not the measure of one physiological variable.

Avocados Number wrote:

I agree with your comment about changing the scale to something else, although it couldn't really be a scale of 0-100, since it doesn't make much sense to have an upper performance limit.

I believe that Jack's decision to use VDOT figures that are approximately correlated with the widely quoted figures for VO2 max (normalized for body mass and expressed in ml/kg/min) has the very unfortunate effect of confusing people even further about the concept of VO2 max and further elevating what is a largely useless measurement in the minds of unsophisticated readers (which includes at least 90% of people with university degrees in exercise physiology).

Oh happy day, someone who actually understands. I was expecting the usual idiocy from posters who claim to be Daniels fans. Instead, I see intelligent posts like this.

The scale should really be pace, i.e. velocity at VO2max (vVO2max) preferably in meters per second to avoid confusing the reader and those 90% of exercize fizzyologists.

Since their is only one Vdot, the generic economy curve, any derivation a different Vdot from the original is essentially impossible, and introduces conflicting variables, which don't tally with the original calculation, effectively suggesting another species other than humans.

Why didn't JD publicize his most important finding, that continued improvements in performance to elite level come from improved endurance, not from improved oxygen uptake?

wellnow wrote:

Why didn't JD publicize his most important finding, that continued improvements in performance to elite level come from improved endurance, not from improved oxygen uptake?

Slightly off-topic, but how does one best improve endurance? How does an approach that maximizes endurance differ from one that maximizes oxygen uptake?

Thanks.

Daniels' research suggest very strongly that maximum oxygen uptake has a genetic limit and that it doesn't take much training to reach this limit. Also that we reach this limit at an early age.

To improve endurance, you do more and more training at appropriate paces.

wellnow wrote:

Daniels' research suggest very strongly that maximum oxygen uptake has a genetic limit and that it doesn't take much training to reach this limit. Also that we reach this limit at an early age.

To improve endurance, you do more and more training at appropriate paces.

With this in mind, what is your view on peaking?

A few things (1) sorry we chose "VDOT" rather than "fitness quotent" or some other key word to put in one of those old computers. (2) Interesting that no-one has yet suggested where the word "VDOT" came from, as it certainly has a valid use. (3) There is a rather simple formula that converts a VDOT value to its corresponding vVO2max. By the way I was the originator of the term "vVO2max," anyone know the original definition as it was presented?

jtupper wrote:

A few things (1) sorry we chose "VDOT" rather than "fitness quotent" or some other key word to put in one of those old computers. (2) Interesting that no-one has yet suggested where the word "VDOT" came from, as it certainly has a valid use. (3) There is a rather simple formula that converts a VDOT value to its corresponding vVO2max. By the way I was the originator of the term "vVO2max," anyone know the original definition as it was presented?

One wild guess would be that VDOT refers to a 'V' with a dot over it, as per the standard notation for the first derivative with respect to time of a variable. In normal use a variable with a single dot usually refers to a velocity so (if you assume the V in this case is VO2max) then this is a sideways (if confusing) way of referring to vVO2max.

Interesting thread name: I have found that I never overestimate the amount of Jack Daniels I have, but Jack Daniels does make me over estimate the looks of members of the opposite sex.

So i guess its all in how you look at it.

Hey guess what? Lots of very good runners have no idea what their VO2 max or Vdot are. And they really don't care too much. You really gotta focus on how you feel; staying extremely positive in your mindset; getting more efficient; and developing power. And always keep a watchful eye on injury prevention (proper warm-up, streching, massaging and icing when done, mental focus on gait cycle as you run).

Professor Daniels, we're honoured to have you back here.

I'm pretty sure most people who actually read the book 'get it', as it was very clearly explained. Similarly, the various spreadsheets and online tools (e.g.

http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm

) suggest paces without confusing anyone about physiology. It is undoubtedly one of the most useful distance coaching books I have seen in 27-odd years of reading these things.

as everyone has said vdot isn't vo2 max. Second I am guessing there is zero difference between 65.6 and 63.5 once you factor in margin of error. The numbers might be measured in tenths but I am guessing the test has a +-5% error range.And yeah it is likely that your efficiency sucks. It is easy to boost vo2max (2-3 years of serious training in an adult maxes it out assuming properly body weight) while efficiency tends to take a bit longer,

Professor Daniels, we're honoured to have you back here.

I'm pretty sure most people who actually read the book 'get it', as it was very clearly explained. Similarly, the various spreadsheets and online tools (e.g.

http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm

) suggest paces without confusing anyone about physiology. It is undoubtedly one of the most useful distance coaching books I have seen in 27-odd years of reading these things.

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I second that! I'm just a high school teacher who loves coaching. I re-read Professor Daniels' book over & over again, reference it for ideas, use the pace charts, & base my season on it.

I WOULD NOT BE THE COACH I AM TODAY WITHOUT JACK DANIELS!

To show it's success, I'll point out last season:

GIRLS TEAM: Runner-Up in State

BOYS TEAM: #1 runner cracked under the pressure at Regions & we didn't move on. Otherwise, top 3-5 at State?

those numerical generalizations apply to people who already have a high level of endurance.

train a couple more years, and the numbers will more closely apply to you.

Citizen Runner wrote:

VDot is not VO2max. The website you linked treats them as equivalent, but Daniels very clearly states in his books that this is not the case. If you are faster this year than last then by definition your VDot went up.

yeah no kidding. my VO2 max tested in a lab at 67 and at the time i was in high school and my VDOT was about a 59-60. just sayin.