mozepp wrote:
this is interesting...if most flat runners have trouble adjusting to the hurdles, does that mean a solid 400 hurdler (given the right training) could make a good steepler?
i mean, they have the skill to hurdle, have some speed, and have at least some base upon which to build more endurance no?
The steeplechase is a distant cousin to hurdling. If you wanted to see funny, then put a bunch of hurdlers in a steeplechase.
malmo wrote:
You rarely find athletes who make a successful transition FROM the flats TO the steeplechase. The only one I can think of to do that was Keino. Well, Garderud to. he was a world class 1500 runner before he tried the steeple.
How many athletes try to pick up steeple later after having success in the flats first? Not rhetorical; serious question.
Steeple is an event that takes more experience and specialized training than other running events. I wouldn't think too many established runners would, in a sense, start over by trying to switch to steeple.
You can train to hurdle well in a few years. You cannot train to run 3000m in a few years. Also, 400m hurdles is somewhat different, style-wise, than the steeplechase. It is more aggressive and lower, and you can afford to clip the hurdle in the 400h. The steeple must be fluid, relaxed, and springy--not getting close to the barrier at all.
It's probably too late for Solinsky to begin steepling, and with his success so far, there's no reason to. The only event harder to medal in than the 5k and 10k is the steeple--look at the history. Not since 2003 has any medalist in a WC or OG steeple come from anywhere outside Kenya or France.
I remember watching a few runners from Team USA Minnesota give the steeple a shot--one was a ~8:00 indoor 3k guy, IIRC, and another was a 2:17 marathoner. The other was a 2:17 marathoner. The first ran 9:01 (almost losing to a guy whose 3k PR was a full 30 seconds slower), the second ran 9:50. That gives you an idea of what you can expect if Solinsky "jumped in" to a steeple. Maybe 8:35 if he ran really well. Probably more like 8:45.
Also, steepling really does not require much speed. Steeplechase pace is usually about 10k race pace for a decent hurdler. 70s will get you to USAs.
NOrthern Star wrote:
Also, steepling really does not require much speed. Steeplechase pace is usually about 10k race pace for a decent hurdler. 70s will get you to USAs.
Actually, I think you're wrong here. I've come to the conclusion that the steeplechase isn't meant to be run slower than 8:15 pace, because you really need to be running that fast to carry enough speed to cleanly clear the barriers. There's the problem. If the event is meant to be run at better than 8:15 pace then how do you get good at it. That's what makes it so difficult.
I remember when Craig Virgin tried the steeplechase. His hurdling was fine, and he didn't seem to have problems with the WJ. His style of running seemed to fit the 'profile' of a steeplechaser, but once he got in a race, he had a very difficult time dealing with the herky jerky nature of the event. He ran 8:52 and never tried it again.
The real test isn't how well you look when you hurdle, it's how well your body responds to the jumping and landing jolts 35 times during the course of 3000m.
Dan Lincoln lost ground over the barriers in both international and domestic competition. But he was well-suited for the event. His body and his mind-set was perfect. He took to it like a rat to cheese.
I have a question about steeplechase but didn't want to start a new thread. What do you guys think is the best physical build for a steeplechaser? Height and weight wise.
malmo wrote:
Schumacher is probably the best coach in the country, and yet he kept forcing Brandon Bethkle into the steeple, an event he was terrible at.
Some people are not suited for the event, and even the best coach in the country won't make them a steeplechaser.
Brandon Bethke ran 8:46 for the steeple and made NCAA nationals as a sophomore. Granted he ran 13:27 for 5k a year later at ASU and that is definitely a better performance, but I wouldn't exactly consider that terrible steeplechasing.
The Saint wrote:
Brandon Bethke ran 8:46 for the steeple and made NCAA nationals as a sophomore. Granted he ran 13:27 for 5k a year later at ASU and that is definitely a better performance, but I wouldn't exactly consider that terrible steeplechasing.
Yes he was terrible.
For comparison's sake. Polar opposites.
Bethke (not suited for the steeple)
F 2006 (19) 3:45.28, 8:16.80, 9:14.97SC
S 2007 (20) 3:43.8*, 8:02.30, 8:54.31SC
J 2008 (21) 3:42.0*, 7:51.54, 8:48.66SC
S 2009 (22) 3:42.81, 7:53.74, 13:27.79
Mine (very suited for the event)
F 1974 (18) 3:50.2*, 8:15.3*, 8:52.4SC
S 1975 (19) 3:48.2*, 8:12.9*, 8:40.4SC
J 1976 (20) 3:45.1*, 8:09.6*, 8:30.3SC
S 1977 (21) 3:42.2, 7:54.0, 8:22.5SC
malmo wrote:
Actually, I think you're wrong here. I've come to the conclusion that the steeplechase isn't meant to be run slower than 8:15 pace, because you really need to be running that fast to carry enough speed to cleanly clear the barriers. There's the problem. If the event is meant to be run at better than 8:15 pace then how do you get good at it. That's what makes it so difficult.
...
The real test isn't how well you look when you hurdle, it's how well your body responds to the jumping and landing jolts 35 times during the course of 3000m.
Chick Hislop at Weber Stat has a similar theory--he says anything slower than 70s is uneconomical (so he would have his over-8:45 guys accelerate towards the barrier until they are going 70-sec pace right before it). I've never steepled anywhere close to 8:15, so the nature of the event might actually change in the low-8s range. You'd know better than me. The mile is like that--I found that about 4:30 is the breaking point between the mile feeling like an "endurance" event vs. a "speed" event.
I definitely agree that whether someone is a "good" hurdler isn't totally evident until laps 6 and 7, but I think one of the most important parts of steepling is MINIMIZING the "herky jerky" nature of the event. When you watch the Kenyans (as well as anyone who can steeple within 20-30 seconds of their flat 3km PR), they are very relaxed and smooth over the barriers. They are not explosive and jerky like a 400m hurdler is--they seem to float over the barriers effortlessly. Gumshoe steeplers tend to forcefully "jump" over the barriers, wasting energy.
… wrote:
I have a question about steeplechase but didn't want to start a new thread. What do you guys think is the best physical build for a steeplechaser? Height and weight wise.
Who knows? Some of the Kenyan Olympic Champions (like Brimin Kipruto) are 5-9, 120. Daniel Lincoln was 6-3, 160. Bob Tahri is 6-3 but only 140.
Konstan Teenople wrote:
Bet he could throw down something in the 8:teens.
That would win D3 Nationals!!!
Yay!!!
Bethke ran the event because he could still win Big 10's easily in steeple and jerry was the coach at a University where his job was to maximize points for his head coach.
Thanks yea I figured there were different body types that could be successful. I just wanted to see if anybody around my height (6-4) and weight (150) were some of those people who did well. I want to try it but will probably only get the chance when I get to college.
Konstan Teenople wrote:
Bet he could throw down something in the 8:teens.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That would win D3 Nationals!!!
Yay!!!
___________________________________________________________
Ya, by 40 seconds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3000m Steeplechase
1 Chris Wirtz, Sr, Wisconsin Eau Claire 8:56.20
DIII Season's Best
Stadium record
Was 8:58.04; Sandu Rebencluc, Augustana, 1993
2 Nick Karwoski, Sr, Dickinson College 8:58.99
3 Brian Lang, Jr, Univ of Rochester 9:00.51
4 Nick Kramer, So, Calvin College 9:04.28
5 Paul Thistle, Sr, SusquehannaUniversity 9:04.33
6 Brian Gillis, Sr, Pomona-Pitzer 9:06.29
7 Anders Crabo, So, Pomona-Pitzer 9:07.28
8 Jack Davies, Fr, Middlebury College 9:07.54
9 Calvin Lee, Sr, New York University 9:13.09
10 Alden Black, Sr, Washington (Missouri) 9:22.06
11 Ben Van Wyk, Jr, Calvin College 9:23.99
12 Aaron Goodman, Sr, Calvin College 9:28.34
13 Florian Scheulen, Sr, ClaremontMuddScripps 9:29.92
14 Sean Carlson, Sr, North Central College 9:32.70
15 Chris Kane, Sr, North Central College 9:44.01
16 David Woodson, Sr, Christopher Newport 9:52.30
If it's that easy how come the Ethiopians do not produce top steeplchasers?
I think he could go sub 8!
Sub 27
Sub 13
Sub 8
Do it!
Solinsky maybe could run a fast time in steeplechase but just imagine what Rupp could run with a couple of years specializing in it. 8:03? 7:57? No telling how low he could go.
Rupp would trip a lot.
Malmo - I had a love/hate relationship with the steeple, and it really had to do with two of the things you mentioned:
1) the faster you're running the easier (relative term) it is to clear the barriers, particularly the water jump
2) the jarring effect of the 35 landings is tough to get used to, and really comes into play in the last two laps. There were times when I would land late in a race and it took a few steps to just get steady again
Add to that the fun of racing in a pack of 12 people, early in the race, with varying degrees of hurdling form and running styles, all converging on a 4-lane-wide barrier.
Having said that, I should have run more of them at the expense of few 1500s just to see how fast I could have run it.
exsub4 wrote:
Having said that, I should have run more of them at the expense of few 1500s just to see how fast I could have run it.
No disagreement here. How many did you try?
No disagreement here. How many did you try?[/quote]
8 as a frosh, two as a soph and three as a junior. Not enough to tell.
exsub4 wrote:
8 as a frosh, two as a soph and three as a junior. Not enough to tell.
8? Eight? Huh?
F - 3
S - 4
J - 6
S - 7