Ice Baths - How often during summer base training?

When I'm feeling good (no nagging soreness) I never use ice baths - I don't see why you couldn't though and now that I think about it it would probablly be helpful. When I have an issue, which is the case now with my left achilles and calf, I use them as often as possible. Making enough ice to do it daily isn't practical so I usually do 3-4 per week. I do them for 30 minutes, some people claim that over 10 minutes is unhealthy. The negative side effects of 30 minute ice baths over 10 minutes ice baths have never been adeqately presented to me.

A few notes:

1. Lowering the body's temperature does not drastically increase the risk of cold, flu, and other illness. The primary factors in getting ill/sick are: (i) exposure to virus and bacteria and (ii) lowered immune system efficiency. Lowering the body's temperature has a minor effect on immune system efficiency - things like diet, sleep, and other concurrent infections will have much larger impacts on one's immune system's efficiency.

2. The primary health risk w/ ice baths can be hypothermia and frost bite. For smaller people and people with weaker cardiovascular systems keeping enough warm bloodflow can be troublesome and can result in hypothermia. Frostbite is not really a major concern since you aren't achieveing sub zero temperatures, but once again people with weaker cardiovascular systems should take care to avoid it. With a bag of ice and a bucket of water you will not achieve sub zero temperatures, but two common ways to get sub zero are with a refrigerating device (not really very common at all) or by adding lots of salt to the ice water. One must be aware of the increased risks with using sub zero ice baths - namely frostbite and hypothermia (they may seem laughably uncommon but they do occasionally pop up). Typically refrigerating devices are used under supervision and aren't troublesome. The only anecdotal evidence I have is when someone fell asleep with lower leg in ice bath for over 60 minutes on a chilly day (10 deg C). We usued blankets and warm water to warm her back up slowly and there was no real problem.

3. Ice baths temporarily reduce blood flow, they 'tighten' the muscles, and they yield numbness. It is generally not good to ice before exercise because: (i) the numbness can mask painful symptoms, (ii) exercise with limited bloodfloow and increased tightness increase the risk of pulled/strained/torn muscles.

4. Ice baths, while temporarily reducing bloodflow, result in increased bloodflow to the iced area eventually. Let's assume the foot: The body's first response to ice bath is increased bloodflow to foot in an attempt to warm the area. When/if your core temperature starts to drop your body will then reduce bloodflow to the foot (and other extremeties) in order to save the warm blood for your vital organs. In essence your body has a natural response and will try to conserve energy and save vital organ operation. When you take your foot out of ice and your core temperature begins to rise again your body will again send increased volumes of blood to foot to warm it back up. In addition, although to a smaller extent, the iced veins and arteries will warm up and expand and allow increased bloodflow to the iced area. Increased bloodflow is the primary benefit for an injured area since blood, for want of a better description, heals the area.

4. There is no indication that cooling and warming cycles (repeated ice baths in one day, or over weeks at a time) have negative side effects.

Please do not misinterpret my intention in #2 (above). When ice bathing you should be aware of the symptoms and risks - but in reality it is one of those things that the local know-it-alls are always spouting about obsessively when, for me at least, the risk never seemed close to realistic.

Too many people try to get the water too cold. It should never be below 55 degrees. Even a bath with cold water (no ice)can have a great deal of benefit. That is why all those athletes put their legs in brooks or steams after they run.

afrikaans wrote:

I hear that the kenyans do nothing but run and then get packed in ice. Not only keeps 'em healthy but cuts down on aging too.

WhAT kinds of ice? do you mean bling bling chains and the like?

CT coach wrote:

Too many people try to get the water too cold. It should never be below 55 degrees. Even a bath with cold water (no ice)can have a great deal of benefit. That is why all those athletes put their legs in brooks or steams after they run.

I was just going to comment on the temp of the water, I always heard 50-55 degrees and you are correct most people use too cold of water. Twenty minutes should be enough time in the water.

CT coach wrote:

Too many people try to get the water too cold. It should never be below 55 degrees. Even a bath with cold water (no ice)can have a great deal of benefit. That is why all those athletes put their legs in brooks or steams after they run.

agreed. but then when you watch the Kara Goucher and Adam Goucher get in an ice bath under the supervision of Alberto Salazaar and the OTC project, you see it looking painful as Adam is trying to get in. Is this because it's sub50 degrees?

I've still never seen any indication that they work. The articles that guy posted were just repeating the rationale behind ice bathing, and anything that references lactic acid buildup is plainly wrong. I want some actual proof that ice baths do something, not anecdotes that strongly fit the profile of a placebo effect.

exactly,so why do we see Adam Goucher in pain on camera trying to do an ice bath?. Are they supposed to be so cold that they are painful to get in?

maybe it's because he has balls. putting your balls in cold water is usually pretty uncomfortable.

I love the idea of ice bathes. I talked to a faculty member in a Sports Medicine department. He talked about the importance of the water moving around. Whirpool is super important to the effectiveness of the ice bath.

Any ideas of how to get 30 runners to do this after a run. Trash barrels?

http://www.homedepot.com/Cleaning-Trash-Recycling-Trash-Cans/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xh3ZbqqiZ1z11pg7/R-100644109/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Does anyone else have a suggestion?

Gramma Gramma bills yall wrote:

I've still never seen any indication that they work. The articles that guy posted were just repeating the rationale behind ice bathing, and anything that references lactic acid buildup is plainly wrong. I want some actual proof that ice baths do something, not anecdotes that strongly fit the profile of a placebo effect.

I agree. Stretching is the same way. You should never accept any treatment without some sort of evidence that it does more good than harm.

The temp discussion brings up a good point. I remember back in college our schools training staff wouldn't let us go below 60 degrees, sometimes we would get lucky and were allowed to make it 55.....however their arguement was never about it being too cold....it was because "not everyone likes it that cold"....aka the football and basketball pussies..

To remedy this we used to either just say screw em and make our own in a garbage can or go sit in the snow and shake off all the snow that stuck to us when we came in right in front of their door..haha good times.

Anyway, what science is out there regarding temperture of the water...when I make them they're always real cold and painful to get in but I don't have a thermometer.

TCB wrote:

I agree. Stretching is the same way. You should never accept any treatment without some sort of evidence that it does more good than harm.

Evidence? The best runners in the world do it. Good enough for me. Runners have been dipping in cool water for a long, long time.

I never take ice baths. They make me feel sick.

I have to be careful of swimming at natatoriums because if the water is not warm enough FOR ME I run a fever afterwards and feel sick for a while.

Ice is good for slowing blood flow and reducing inflammation. Heat is good for increasing blood flow and bringing internal fluids to the site. Each has pros and cons depending on the situation. Look at your situation and do one, both, or neither as necessary. End of discussion.

Do they? Seems like it would be tough to do ice baths in Kenya/Ethiopia. I'm not saying African runners don't, but I've never seen anything about them ice bathing.

That is not evidence at all. Just because they all do it means nothing. They might be better if they didn't do it and they might just be good in spite of it. Evidence would be a study that controls for other factors and only varies whether people take the ice baths or not. You would never take medicine that has not passed a clinical study, so why would you submerge yourself in freezing cold water when it hasn't been studied?

supdog wrote:

maybe it's because he has balls. putting your balls in cold water is usually pretty uncomfortable.

maybe it's because he's a moron. I could do that too, but the purpose of this thread was to see if a painful ice bath is beneficial, not to prove who has the biggest balls to do something possibly stupid

Eminem Recovery wrote:

supdog wrote:

maybe it's because he has balls. putting your balls in cold water is usually pretty uncomfortable.

maybe it's because he's a moron. I could do that too, but the purpose of this thread was to see if a painful ice bath is beneficial, not to prove who has the biggest balls to do something possibly stupid

+1