ROSA WINS LUKAS GETS 5TH IN 8:58

He ran 8:58. He ran what he ran.

He would not "have won the race" - he would have run 8:58 - which is what he ran in the race.

Even if he was going for German's record, he still ran too fast the first mile. Even in the 2 mile, you still have to run negative splits to run your best time. He should have went through the first mile no faster than 4:19-4:20. (German ran 4:19.4/4:15)

I don't believe he was in any better shape than 8:40-8:44 if he ran a great race so he should have went through in about 4:22. That 5 seconds made a huge difference at the end when he slowed 6+ seconds a lap.

If, he has been hurt and can run 4:04, and a bad race 8;58, then I want to be hurt too! Just a little too fast early, with no help. would be nice if he could get in the PRE mile.

So a high school kid went out too fast and struggled home. Happens all the time. Okay, this particular kid appears to be a major talent, but talent doesn't automatically come with a good sense of pacing, tactics, race strategy, etc. Those things must be learned. Only difference here is the spotlight.

he ran what he ran wrote:

He ran 8:58. He ran what he ran.

He would not "have won the race" - he would have run 8:58 - which is what he ran in the race.

Wow kid, you have a lot to learn about running and racing. He went after the record and couldn't do it, yet. Racing and time trialing are totally different. It's been proven on this message board time and time again. I'm guessing you aren't very fast because most runners would know just from experience.

check out the splits of the guy who finished 4th

http://www.flashresults.com/2010_Meets/outdoor/NewBalance/SplitResults11-1-2.htm

you still ... "have"... to run negative splits to run your best time

when did that become a unilateral truth,, as stated? And who was the enlightened one who pronounced it law?

SomeActualData wrote:

talent doesn't automatically come with a good sense of pacing, tactics, race strategy, etc. Those things must be learned. Only difference here is the spotlight.

I don't believe it has to do with tactics or sense of pace per se, I actually think it has to do with some of last of respect for the records he claims he is shooting for. Look, I am in no way debating Lukas' amazing talent, ability, and even guts, but I now think he will start learning a little more respect for the great times that others have run in the past. His coach has been talking about him being the "greatest talent in US history", and in the fall he was saying he was going take down Virgin's x-c course record, and talking about breaking 4:00 all by himself this year, and breaking German's 2-mile record, etc (none of which he did). I think he is talking a little too nonchalantly about breaking all these records. I think he figured, "hey, I am as good as anyone before me, why can't I just step out there and all by myself run in the 8:30's today!" Again, I admire that fearlessness, but I think he finally got a little dose of reality, which is: all those all-time records are all-time records for a reason, ie, they don't come cheaply/easily, and he may never approach them, them, even next year as an 18 y.o. if he choose to run some more HS races.

He is sick runner, but not the most talented HS'r of all time by a long shot. He is not close to the level of a Jim Ryun, Gerry Lindgren, 3:53 Alan Webb, German Fernandez, etc, and there have been many, many more at least as talented as he.

Remember, German ran a solo 4:01 mile (converted) and then 2 hours later ran a solo 8:37 deuce, again, all by himself. And he did it at the same age that Lukas is right now, and probably with lower lifetime miles under his belt (German started late and had injuries). Lukas is NOT on the level that German was at the same age, but he seems to think he should be able to just stroll in as a part-time runner and smash some all time records. Time for some respect for those times Mr Verzbicas

johnnyb1610 wrote:

he ran what he ran wrote:

He ran 8:58. He ran what he ran.

He would not "have won the race" - he would have run 8:58 - which is what he ran in the race.

Wow kid, you have a lot to learn about running and racing. He went after the record and couldn't do it, yet. Racing and time trialing are totally different. It's been proven on this message board time and time again. I'm guessing you aren't very fast because most runners would know just from experience.

I know you like to think you're the expert on the subject, and everyone else is clueless, but the guy has a point. So get your head out of your ass and listen for once because running is about more than just racing vs. time trialling. It's about what the runner is capable of mentally and physically, and today, Verzbicas wasn't "supposed" to run any faster than he did. You can't expect someone to PR every single race. He ran 5 seconds slower than his PR, and that's just what he was capable of that day. He tried what he thought would work, failed, and the rest is just speculation. The pace was obviously too much for him, and he fell apart. Besides, you look more like the idiot for claiming things can be conclusively proven on a running message board. Hello, that's not proof of anything. Get your facts straight, and leave the conjecture alone.

German ran a 4:19. Lukas ran a 4:17.77. That 1.23s was not the reason Lukas didn't run 8:34. He didn't run 8:34 because he wasn't having an 8:34 day (either not in that type of shape or tired). Now if Lukas thought he was in 8:44 shape, then yeah running 4:22 would have been the way to go. But if he runs 4:22, he is not going to get close to 8:34.As far as guessing his shape, 8:30 (+10s a mile) to 8:50(+20s/mile) would be a reasonable range for any 4:05 miler with a distance background. If you try and run at the aggressive end, you definitely run a higher risk of blowing up. If you run conservative, you risk leaving a bit on the track. And if you think Lukas died, look at Jeramy Elkaim splits (4:20/4:50). But if your in HS and have run 8:46, I respect the attitude of going out at a hard (but somewhat sane. pace) and seeing what you can do. In this case he blew up.

ripvanracer wrote:

Even if he was going for German's record, he still ran too fast the first mile. Even in the 2 mile, you still have to run negative splits to run your best time. He should have went through the first mile no faster than 4:19-4:20. (German ran 4:19.4/4:15)

I don't believe he was in any better shape than 8:40-8:44 if he ran a great race so he should have went through in about 4:22. That 5 seconds made a huge difference at the end when he slowed 6+ seconds a lap.

wow, way too many idiotic responses here.

Let me be the first to lament the shut down of DyeStat and the invasion of all those losers.

the rosas didn't go out much slower than verzbicas; the gap appears at 1200 or 1600, and it is only about three seconds. But of course he was going for German's record and he wasn't ready for it. He may have stinted a bit on longer distance work or maybe the heat got to him. Who knows? He is still the same kid who ran 4:04 and hammered fifty sixes in a workout.

gorney wrote:

wow, way too many idiotic responses here.

Let me be the first to lament the shut down of DyeStat and the invasion of all those losers.

I hope that was not directed at me, because I've been posting on letsrun for nearly a decade and haven't looked at dyestat for the same 10 years.

punk. (*IF* that was directed at me)

Sir Lance-alot wrote:Look, I am in no way debating Lukas' amazing talent, ability, and even guts, but I now think he will start learning a little more respect for the great times that others have run in the past. His coach has been talking about him being the "greatest talent in US history", and in the fall he was saying he was going take down Virgin's x-c course record, and talking about breaking 4:00 all by himself this year, and breaking German's 2-mile record, etc (none of which he did). I think he is talking a little too nonchalantly about breaking all these records. I

if he didn't get injured indoors, and hadn't just returned to competing recently, he probably would have gotten much closer to doing all those things.

ehyo wrote:

I watched the race,

Lukas looked crushed during the medal ceremony.

Last year, after coming in third in the same race, he also looked crushed. He sat with his head in his hands and told a reporter something to the effect of 'I was supposed to win.'

This son of an Olympian immigrant works out 3 times a day to the point of needing 6000 calories a day to fuel his training. He did not compete with his high school team this spring. Sounds like a blast.

Draw your own conclusions but I'm glad I'm not in his shoes. I have the strong impression that he is living the dream, but whose dream it is, well, I'm not too sure.

ehyo wrote:

I give him props for being brave, and I also give props to the Rosa's for being smart.

Going hard early in the race isn't being brave. Did you see the Rosas' move on Lukas. They floored all out for the last 3 laps. That's also brave. It does help though that they have each other as training partners and in races to work.

no one wrote:

you still ... "have"... to run negative splits to run your best time

when did that become a unilateral truth,, as stated? And who was the enlightened one who pronounced it law?

Virtually every single competitive record from the 1500 and longer.

how about 800?

I was just pointing out the facts about what kind of shape he seemed to be in based on his actual times. You not only have to have the talent and training to break records, you also have to have perfectly paced races to do so. What he ran the first mile would be what one would run if they were shooting for 8:28-8:30.

That being said, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH GOING OUT TOO FAST ONCE IN A WHILE so you can see exactly where your breaking point is. I don't believe a national championship race is the place to do that though.

Based on the 4:04 mile and this race, my guess is that he could run 8:42-8:44 with a properly paced race which is still phenominal.