Powell 9.82 (+0.6) = 9.85 corrected

Ventolin--

Good stuff.

I think that there are just too many assumptions, however, for the stated relationship of Gay's 400 time to his 100 time to hold true, some of which you have pointed out.

But fun! I await the 9.65

I don't quite know that it is up in the air, though. His "injuries" obviously aren't debilitating traumatic physical injuries--consider that nobody with any real injury could run 9.69

Or 9.88 in a straight 200, for that matter.

Or even 200m at all!

I think there' still hope for him this year, but this is my prediction: if and when he lines up against the likes of Powell in a 100m, he will have to push too hard and will sustain an ACTUAL traumatic injury, from which it will take him a very long time to recover, if he ever does. He'll still run a good time, of course, assuming that he can finish the race.

He should forget 100's this year. Do 200's like Bolt, leave the 100m to Powell et al, or even stick to 400's. Or skip the year altogether and address his health concerns properly.

That is, unless the emotionally fragile Powell shows up in the race, in which case Gay will have won before the gun ever sounds.

Last I heard, no nutritionist ever fixed sciatica.

Tyson ran his 200m PB with a +1.4ms and his 100m PB with a +2ms wind.

Perfect conditions dont come along every day.

Intrinsically, the 9.71s in Berlin was better than the 9.69s run.

As for the groin, how is it that Tyson can be setting PBs when Asafa had to miss 2005 W Champs due to supposedly similar groin issues???

I could barely walk when I had minor groin issues.

Sprint Geezer wrote:I think that there are just too many assumptions, however, for the stated relationship of Gay's 400 time to his 100 time to hold true, some of which you have pointed out

no

you have comprehension problems

i stated that as a general principle, not just specific to tyson

get unstoopid moron

if a 10.00/20.00 with a 46.00pb that year runs 45.00 the next, the figures to work on for potential before considering speed-blunting are

~ 20.00 - (1/4)*1.00 = 19.75

~ 10.00 - (1/16)*100 = 9.9375

His "injuries" obviously aren't debilitating traumatic physical injuries--consider that nobody with any real injury could run 9.69

moronic assertion

coudn't bolt ???

Or 9.88 in a straight 200, for that matter

err...

look up some splits idiot

tyson has run 10.00 on a curve en-route in a 200

far superior to a straight 9.88 if winds are comparable

Or even 200m at all!

you seriously aren't stoopid enough to ignore that a curve costs ~ 0.2s ???

Last I heard, no nutritionist ever fixed sciatica.

no

they certainly have helped fixed hypocalcaemia &/or hypokalaemia which are also a cause of muscle spasms which is the specific symptom he's mentioned & NOT sciatica

infama wrote:As for the groin, how is it that Tyson can be setting PBs when Asafa had to miss 2005 W Champs due to supposedly similar groin issues???

I could barely walk when I had minor groin issues.

moron

getting hit by a car head on at 5mph & another at 50mph can both result in injuries

are you stoopid enough to assume they are of same severity ???

Hey Ventolin--

First, yes I know you were speaking in generalities, but you were using Gay's times for illustration. I should have said that there are just too many assumptions for the stated general relationship of 400 time to 100 time to apply to Gay's 400 and 100 times. My bad inarticulation.

Second, no, Bolt couldn't run 9.69 with any real injury. My point was that a real injury prevents you from running, period. Unless you limp on one leg basically, like some people do when they blow a hammy at 90m.

Agreed on the hypocalcaemia/hypokalaemia, but it was Gay himself who suggested that the muscle "tightness" was a result of sciatica [sic] nerve problems--he never mentioned spasm, and he never suggested that an electrolyte imbalance or deficit was responsible for the tightness.

(By the way, even if he had mentioned spasm, "sciatica" is a generalized term of which one of the characteristic symptoms can be spasm.)

not obvious from your drivel

if you knew i was talking generalities, you woud never have questioned any specific illustration

moron

i'm talking hard-researched physics here

you are offering drivel as a response

offer something mathematically solid as a rebuttal, not your innane nonsense

that is a nonsense opinion with no semblance of proof

bolt ran 9.58 with an early season injury of an impaled foot - that is a semblance of proof you can run fast with an injury

as for tyson, he never ran the 200 in berlin, his favorite event because his groin was screwed for any rotational- pressured fast runs - he hasn't run a conventional 200 since

drivel

read response immediately above

complete moron

yet another idiot who doesn't differentiate between a 5mph/50mph rta

like f*** you know anything about it

what do you suggest is more likely ?

how woud you Ix ?

what are the differentials ??

moron

he mentioned "tightness" in his hamstring as his cardinal symptom

only an idiot with no medical background immediately assumes it is a neuropathic disorder when pertaining to a super-athlete

don't waste my time with your layman's diagnoses

impress me with a list for possible causes of his "tightness of hamstring"...

OK, here's why all the fastest people run those 400s during prep:

First, Flojo, like Bolt, started out as a 400 and 200 specialist. Flojo was NCAA champion at 400, later at 200, before she competed in a single 100. Like Bolt, the WR was gone quickly once she combined the 400m strength with some 100m speed training. Forget about Bolt for a moment. You only have to look at Flojo in Seoul to see what is at play here--the way she obliterated the field in the SECOND half of the race. That's vastly superior speed endurance.

When you accelerate at 100% from blocks, your leg muscles can store enough alactic ATP (or CP convertible to ATP) for 7 seconds at MAXIMUM OUTPUT. It's really not 60 meters--it's 7 seconds, and the slower you are the more speed endurance you need to supplement this. With some training (Charlie Francis short to long) you can up that 7 seconds to 8 seconds, but that's about it. You can have enough CP for up to 15-20 seconds with training, but the rate goes down. To maintain output, you have to supplement the (now declining) alactic energy with glycolytic energy, and that's where the overdistance stuff comes in.

Enter John Smith and Drive Phase. Smith came in during the late '90s with a method to conserve that 7 seconds--somewhat. Smith's point was that if you ran a 30 meter start pressing as hard as you can, then ran one relaxed--trying to conserve energy rather than waste it--the difference in time was small, but the difference in energy consumption was significant, and this is the basis of HSI training. Smith does have people doing 300s and 400s (more 200s during indoor season) but the real basis of the training is to go fast but save something for the last 20m of the race. This is an oversimplification and there's more involved here, including breathing methods, but conserving energy is the main thing that makes HSI different. And using this method Mo Greene ran 9.79 and was almost unbeatable for a period.

But you don't run 6.32-6.33 60 meter splits by holding back ANYTHING. The Jamaicans have taken what John Smith had and ADDED something: More Conditioning, and that's the main difference between sub-9.8 and sub-9.72. In the Jamaican training, there are significant numbers of 300s and out to 450s (Steve Francis has 400 guys going out to 800, so THOSE 400 guys can probably run a decent 800). This training is done mostly on grass (the MVP group doesn't even start training on track until March, according to coaching seminars given by Steve Francis).

The 300-450 meter training is done during general prep, and it doesn't consist of running all-out 300s or 400s. A guy like Asafa Powell, who is capable of a 300 in maybe 31-32, is running something like 6X300 in 37. This is known in sprinting as intensive tempo (80-90% speed). During this same period, the Jamaicans are also doing a lot of short sled pulls (with up to 50 pounds on the sled for Asafa), and steep hill training (something like 10 X 40m up a steep hill).

Ventolin--

Sorry to have entertained you, you are a flaming idiot, as we can all now see.

Coach D!

Excellent, thank-you very much for not bailing on the thread, even given the taunting that I've dished out.

Some things:

I agree with the basic information you reported on energy systems. One cannot reasonably disagree, as the knowledge is now well established in physiological and biochemical science.

However, a 100m race cannot be reduced to a discussion of energy systems. Biomechanics plays a critical role--and 400m biomechanics do not do a good job of preparing the body for 100m biomechanics. No real start. No real drive phase. No real transition. No maximum horizontal stride. Different application of power to the ground. And so on.

Gay's biomechanics are, IMHO, great, maybe the best, in top-speed running.

His biomechanics in the start and drive phase leave much to be desired, however.

The point about energy conservation at the start is well known, but you can have either a good start or a crappy start while expending the same energy from the same energy systems. Many runners follow that energy-conservation belief, but their starts are nothing like Gay's start. Using your example of Mo Greene, it is obvious that Gay's start has tremendous room for improvement, while still affording him the opportunity to conserve energy.

But again, his start biomechanics must be TRAINED. He is just not doing that training.

I AGREE THAT 400'S MAY BE IMPORTANT. BUT GAY WILL NEVER BREAK OR APPROACH THE WR WITHOUT A BETTER START AND EARLY DRIVE PHASE.

And one does not have to do 400's to develop the glycolytic energy system successfully.

When you said that the Jamaicans have added "more conditioning", what did you mean? If you meant just more 400's, how does that account for the superior start and drive of Powell and Bolt in comparison to Gay? It doesn't. The difference is provided by, among other things, the hill training--the body position, the drive, the recovery.

Those hills aren't training specifically for an energy system as much as they are a low-impact method of start/drive form training.

And Gay needs to do some, and has needed to do some for a long time. If he HAS been doing them, then he needs better coaching to help him benefit from them and transfer that experience to the track.

I'd still like to hear your answers to the 2 specific questions I posed of you:

1) Specifically, what do you think Powell needs to do to run faster?

2) Specifically, what do you think Gay needs to do to run faster?

The type of answers I'm looking for are those that describe what aspect(s) of their respective races afford each of them the opportunity to improve, and how they should go about achieving that improvement.

I'm disappointed that your response was framed in generalities and was not aimed specifically at Powell and Gay.

Like I said, I love the way Gay runs at speed, even this year. But that's not all there is to approaching the 100m WR.

And finally, your use of FloJo and Mo as examples is disappointing. If there were ever 2 runners who are almost universally considered to have gotten away with rampant doping, it is those two.

Sprint Geezer wrote:Biomechanics plays a critical role--and 400m biomechanics do not do a good job of preparing the body for 100m biomechanics

moron

tyson nor any other pure sprinter does 400m in order to develop any "biomechanics"

they do it to develop strength/endurance for the 100/200

there is no working on 400m "biomechanics" for any of these guys as it is a waste of time/focus/energy - all they want out of it is the better strength/endurance for the 100/200

the only biomechanics they work on is for the short sprint

stop talking drivel

Clearly Ventolin has comprehension problems.

I said I had a MINOR groin injury and could barely walk. The only treatment I had was ice and rest. TG claimed to have needed surgery for his but could run 9.69 and 9.71s. Have you EVER had a groin injury??? It seemss you are absolutelky clueless about groin injuries.

Ventoilin, I have some prime Florida land to sell you. ROTFLMAO

obviously you are a complete wimp/pussy if you had a minor groin strain & coud barely walk

tyson must be granite hard to have run 9.69/9.71 with an injury so serious he had to have surgery

& moron, there is nothing "claimed" about him having groin surgery - HE HAD GROIN SURGERY or are you so moronic that they woud make up such a story

http://ca.reuters.com/article/sportsNews/idCATRE59N1PF20091024

you think this dr meyers made up the story that he performed sugery on tyson ???

you are a moron

as for me having "no knowledge of groin surgery"

i've performed a dozen inguinal herniorrhaphies in my internship before deciding on another career path

how many have you performed muppett ???

Infama--

Ventolin is turgid, vulgar, and bellicose.

Just ignore it.

Maybe the moderators will filter out Ventolin in the future.

OK

This must be Eldrick going by the name Ventolin.

Doing groin surgery and having/feeling the effects of a groin injury are 2 different things.

Now the injury is serious, after your nice analogy about being hit by a car at 5mph and 50mph. Which is it? Asafa could not run and you implied that was serious and that Tyson's was relatively minor. Now it seems Tyson's was serious after all and needed surgery. So why was AP collapsing on the track and TG was running PBs. What a conondrum!

Again if you feel that its possible to run near WR time with a REAL groin injury, I have some promissory notes to seel you. They are backed by some "investment grade" sub-prime mortgages. Hahahahahaha

err...yes...

statement of the blinding obvious

ehh ???

i have never implied tyson's injury wasn't serious

ANY groin injury which requires surgery is serious & can be considered nearer the 50mph end

any surgery of the groin is fraught with danger, from nerve damage during the repair to the frequent development of adhesions which can cause extreme restriction of range of movement - which no amount of physio or cortsione injections will fix - further surgery for adhesions can cause more adhesions - an inevitable consequence of the inflammatory response to any internal surgery

the adhesions can be career-ending as reduced range of movement means you will never be able to sprint flat-out ever again

that is why for tyson to have surgery meant he had to be absolutely desperate with the injury & any orthopaedic surgeon worth 2c wouda outlined the above :

take a risk on surgery to cure groin but a significant chance of adhesions which will finish you as a top-level sprinter

to opt for surgery indicates he was on the edge of a cliff with the pain & had no other choice

ehh ???

you are clueless, moron

the groin is the most complex joint region in the body with the most delicate structures with dozens+ of different possible injuries

it is a virtual certainty the 2 athletes had different injuries, the end result only being both needed surgery

you are a f***ing moron

he DID run near wr times with a groin injury

read the above you illiterate baboon

Tyson can run fast with a groin Injury

Powell can run fast under ideal conditions when he isn't day dreaming in the blocks

Bolt never slows down.

Groin injury..hahahahahahahaha.

9.6x with a groin injury?

Fantasy land!

ElDrick,

So, this is why you are hiding out?

Why is TG no running now? Do you also subscribe to the running to fast for his body BS? Are you going to prescribe him a nutritional program to remedy that too? ROTFLMAO.

Dont bother with the insults either, as you know from experience that they dont work on me. We go back too far (IAAF forum) for you to forget that. In sults are boring anyway.

Just get your new protege (since King Carl is waaaay to old) healthy and willing so that he get get his proper buss ass. I have never seen a bigger ducker, for a man you claim to be so tough.

Infama wrote:

Groin injury..hahahahahahahaha.

9.6x with a groin injury?

Fantasy land!

it seems you are so stoopid that you can't understand the obvious

he runs 9.6 with a groin injury requiring surgery subsequently

therefore, logic dictates he couda run MUCH faster without it - perhaps the wr

is this concept to difficult for your pea-brain to comprehend ???