Are There Any Videos Of Coe's 3:29 And Ovett's 3:30?

George Matthews wrote:

I have both races in full, as well as Maree's 1500 wr from Cologne in 83. Like Komen's 3000 in 96, they were unusual races in that all 3 performed times you would not have anticipated from their form leading up to these runs. Rieti has always had this mystique, but Cologne [R.I.P.] was another late season meet which always provided us with some amazing marks. Cram was another with a penchant for Rieti, and Ngeny, Aouita, Morceli and El G. Great place to run in late summer

Wow! I'm very envious. Never had Eurosport then, so didn't even see the races at the time. I don't suppose you'd be willing to put them on Youtube or be prepared to sell a copy of them onto dvd or video?

You're not related to Peter Matthews are you? I know he was probably there in person commentating or doing the stats.

I actually think Coe and Ovett's times were a long time coming. Ovett's 83 season wasn't his best, I know, and people obviously remember his relative failure in Helsinki coming 4th, but he actually covered the last lap (51.9) there faster than anyone and had to run wide on both last bends. Had he ran with his usual tactical acumen I think he would have got past Cram. He then had an impressive and easy 3:32 in Koblenz about a week before Rieti. So I thought at the time he could get close to Maree's 3:31.24

Coe had also shown in Stuttgart a couple of weeks before his 3:29, that he was still the best 800m runner in the World, with a 24.8 last 200m in a 1:44. Like Ovett in Helsinki, he too ran a diabolical tactical race in the 1500, which he really should have won. He ran practically every bend in lane 2 in that 1500 final, and though his last lap (51.1, to Cram's 50.9) was marginally slower than Cram's, he ran about 4.5m further (worth about 0.6sec).

I think both these runs underline that they should have run faster in their peak years.

I think Cram also ran a world lead 800m (1:43.19) at the same 86 meet as Coe. Surprisingly, I don't think either had run there before, despite Coe often racing in Italy.

Be good to hear what you think of the races, as you're probably one of a limited number of people to have actually seen them!

Cheers.

Yes George, please find a way to share these, and deanouk, excellent post as usual. Thanks.

i had to double check, but eurosport didn't start broadcasting 'til '89, so those vids didn't come from eurosport

i thought they did show maree's wr on normal tv, but not sure about the 2 ovett/coe races

i had a cable/dish from early '80s & they almost certainly wouda shown those races on the german/italian satellite channels - dsf/rai-uno/etc but i was too busy to look for them beforehand - those races will be in german/italian

marre's much better run than his wr was his 3'29 in cologne ( which i did see & actually got on tape in the shed, but haven't looked for in 25y ) - bile did an astonishing wabbiting job & iirc took him to the bell in one of the fastest 1100 times ever & it was a pity he had the fatigue of a 3'32.9 from chasing after aouita just 2 days earlier & he faded in home straight but still held on for 3'29.77 !!!

if he hadn't run on berlin on the friday, i have little doubt he wouda gone at least 3'29-flat

it goes to show what moorcroft couda done in '82 if he'd run a 1500 like this one as he was also a 13-flat guy & i assume pretty much he wouda had same 800 ability as maree- a guy not known for blazing last lap speed

I would not use Youtube to broadcast my old footage for too many reasons to mention, but Universal Sports, despite their having no discernible rights over this copyright, do have lawyers and know how to use them........

I know there is always the old chestnut about Rieti being a short track and the number of late season Personal Bests set there is truly extraordinary, but in all the footage i have seen from there the weather always looks perfect, pace making is always spot on and the fields are good.

The footage is not from Eurosport, that channel only started broadcasting in Britain in 1989, but RAI showed excerpts from their Sunday afternoon sports programme and the highlights for each year are around 20 minutes to 45 minutes depending on the year. It was not BBC standard circa mid 80s, but it does show all races up to a mile in full. Contact me on my email address if you want any more info.

George Matthews wrote:I know there is always the old chestnut about Rieti being a short track...

it isn't anything to do with a short track ( these are descendants of romans who had the technology to build straight roads 2000y ago!

it is ludicrous to believe they can't measure out a 400m track )

there are 2 reasons why rieti is fast

1) it is 400m altitude which is just about the "perfect" altitude where less wind resistance due to rising altitude is virtually unhandicapped by lesser oxygen saturation in haemoglobin, which is countered by shift in oxygen-dissociation curve

above 400m, the dissociation can't compensate enough & overall lack of oxygen in blood outweighs less wind-resistance & middle distance times slow

a starting point to estimate it woud be the 400m wind altitude calculator :

for a 1'43.00 run in rieti, the sea-level time woud be ~

1'43.198

for a 3'30 run in rieti, the sea-level time woud be ~

3'30.371

for a 7'20.67 run in rieti, the sea-level time woud be ~

7'21.413

the times woud be slightly quicker than these as the curve won't compensate 100%, but it's a start

2) even more importantly, rieti is in a wooded area ( which can be seen in background of vids ) - those extra trees pump out more O2 than in a standard urban area & you are going to get higher than 21% oxygen saturation in the air in the vicinity - this means more oxygen for the body ( also more O2 will replace CO2 in the air from the increased photosynthesis compared to urban area & O2 has lower overall atomic mass than latter making atmosphere less dense in addition )

Fascinating analysis.

or they could have just run fast. but your idea is plausible

on Saturn.

SubOneForty wrote:or they could have just run fast. but your idea is plausible

on Saturn.

err...

no trees there retard

....but other than the lack of trees, everything else should be A-OK for running on Saturn, hahahahahaha.......

Sorry I couldn't resist.

Indeed, I also saw the finishing part of Coe's 3:29 in a Coe/Ovett thingy. I just remembered this.

Wow, what a great discussion. Thanks George and skug! Really.

Those stats might explain the odd tenth or so per lap, but if you weigh in with some more pertinent human factors, it only serves to mystify further this strange track.

Going back to 1981, which was the first time Rieti really emerged on my consciousness as a track fan, the meet takes place in September, not a time when athletes are peaking. The World Cup had just been completed in Roma, and a few days later i read in the paper that Ovett, who had been imperious all summer, had just been beaten by Sydney Maree in a Mile. No big deal, i thought, end of season, Tom Byers type race, Ovett had just dusted him a few days earlier, and had probably just coasted. Then you look at the times, Maree 3;48.8! Ovett just outside 3;50! I got the tape of this race recently and, believe me, Maree could have gone faster, Ovett could not get near him. Add to this a superfast 5000 and the venue suddenly starts to attract interest.

Literally dozens of great, late season, out of left field marks later [Rudisha's 800 in 2009 just the latest] and i still find it hard to understand. Most other end of season meets, even including many in the new Diamond League that take place after the Championships struggle to post a mark of any significance at all, but Rieti, from Powell to Komen and all points inbetween, never fails to deliver. I am not knocking it, on the contrary, it is wonderful to have this late season anomaly, but i cannot agree that simple environmental factors were the reason Coe and Ovett got their lifetime prs there, when there were other nights when they must have been in much sharper form.

George Matthews wrote:Most other end of season meets, even including many in the new Diamond League that take place after the Championships struggle to post a mark of any significance at all

likely due to fact these are mostly in china/japan & for distance runners, the plane journey there has wasted them before they even step up onto the line - & off course these meets aren't at 400m up in wooded areas

but i cannot agree that simple environmental factors were the reason Coe and Ovett got their lifetime prs there, when there were other nights when they must have been in much sharper form.

1) coe & ovett were much faster than 3'29/3'30 intrinsically earlier in their careers but didn't get right race to do such - coe in '81 & ovett in '78 where <1'44/<<8'13 ability pointed to <3'30

2) they woud likely run much faster rieti times in june/july than september, before the end of season fatigue

3) look at vids of alan webbs 1'43 & 3'46 ( times he's never approached before or since ) & look at the setting

So Coe's 2.12,18(sealevel) is slightly better thanNgeny's (Rieti) 2.11,96. Am I right?

[quote]Card counter wrote:

So Coe's 2.12,18(sealevel) is slightly better than

Ngeny's (Rieti) 2.11,96. Am I right?[quote]

I would say Coe's record is superior for 2 reasons.

1) The Rieti track in the late 90's is almost certainly a better one (thus faster) than the old Oslo one from 1981. Certainly by 1985, the Oslo track had been changed and upgraded, though can't remember which year, I think it was between the 84 and 85 meets.

2) Ngeny had pace up to about 750m, a further 150m more than Coe. He also had a couple of guys close behind up to 800m. The drafting effect alone would have given Ngeny about 0.38 advantage (if the 1.0 sec per 400m for drafting is correct).

Ngeny also had a few attempts to get close to Coe's record. I don't think Coe had the best build up to his run in Oslo. He had solo run a 3:31 in Stockholm 3 days previous off a 52 first lap and 1:49 at 800m. He also developed a large blister on the ball of his foot during that race. When asked post race if he was going to go for a WR in Oslo later that week; where he was down to run an 800m if I remember correctly; he basically said, "No chance".

He then tried to switch to the Dream Mile and run against Ovett, but Ovett, via Andy Norman, wouldn't allow him in the race. All this is according to Pat Butcher in his book, "The Perfect Distance".

He therefore got a 1000m put in at the last minute. During the race the blister burst, and his father said but for that and the Stockholm race, it would have been faster.

Having said all this, I think Ngeny was a bit too fast over the first 400m in his record, so it's swings and roundabouts.

And Ngeny was on EPO and Coe wasn't.

I am not Jos wrote:

And Ngeny was on EPO and Coe wasn't.

Good point. They should give the record back to Coe. I've heard from various sources that Ngeny was caught using EPO in Sydney, but they kept it quiet as the IOC thought the repercussions would be too damaging for the Olympic movement. Have no idea if this is true, but I always got a feeling that something wasn't right with his performances, especially after retiring so young in 2002.

"I've heard from various sources"

"Have no idea if this is true but I always got a feeling"

Blah blah blah.

I've heard from various sources that you are a typical LetsRun moron. I have every idea that it's true