I respect Tim Noakes - but, he's wrong on this one

You must be a great coach, Coach D. It shows real class, to Semenya as "It." The capitalization is particularly endearing.

anon wrote:

Both Geb and Usain have a definite hormonal advantage on me. No question these two are producing more androgynous hormones than I am, and this plays into their dominance in the sport.

this guys body of work. He is a scientist through and through.

i think you mean androgenic hormones...

RE: "Noakes is a scientist of top-level international reputation"

actually....Tim's reputation has been slipping the last 10+ years...I know many, many top scientist who purposely distance themselves from him.

He pushes the envelope on scientific thinking and dogma (which is a good thing), but he is so "blinding" by his own thinking (his own elixer) that many of this thoughts and comments are completely flawed.

wasn't Noakes a big supporter of Gert Thys as well? Thys was eventually outed as a performance drug user.

I have a theory too wrote:

wasn't Noakes a big supporter of Gert Thys as well? Thys was eventually outed as a performance drug user.

Yes on both accounts.

Its not that hard.

If you have the anatomical machinery to produce sperm, you are a male.

If you have the anatomical machinery to produce eggs, you are a female.

Males always have a Y chromosome

Females never have a Y chromosome.

Otto wrote:

Its not that hard.

If you have the anatomical machinery to produce sperm, you are a male.

If you have the anatomical machinery to produce eggs, you are a female.

Males always have a Y chromosome

Females never have a Y chromosome.

Do you (really) believe that the performance difference between male and female runners is due to whether they produce sperm or not?

Perhaps Lance Armstrong is halfway to being able to compete as a woman?

Otto wrote:

Its not that hard.

If you have the anatomical machinery to produce sperm, you are a male.

If you have the anatomical machinery to produce eggs, you are a female.

some people have both. What do you do with them?

Males always have a Y chromosome

Females never have a Y chromosome.

Some people have more than two chromosomes, what do you do with them?

Neb wrote:

The problem with letting non-females participate as females isn't that they might run 1:41 - as Noakes said - it's that many high school guys can run world class female times. If you were to take his logic to its conclusion that Bolt's genetic differences over his male opponents are no different than genetic differences attributable to gender than we wouldn't have female sports at all - we would just have females attempt to compete with males. The result would be that there wouldn't be any females in Olympic sports - is that what Noakes wants?

I feel bad for people who are intersex - not only in relation to sports - but, just daily life. It must be a very difficult thing, but that doesn't mean that they should be allowed to compete with females - the advantage is too great.

Agreed. (And I'm sorry, but Lore Of Running is a huge mess. Noakes isn't God.)

the answer is here wrote:

What's outrageous is that there is no clear test in place, so Semenya is currently being subjected to months of testing, is unable to compete, and is the subject of vicious rumours.

Not so. He is welcome to compete as a man.

He is not welcome to compete as a woman.

That's about as clear cut as it's possible to get.

And all because spectators felt she looked like a man, so now we're trying to invent a new test that will bar her from competing.

Wrong again. He is a man.

Therefore he needs to compete against men.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Otto wrote:

Its not that hard.

If you have the anatomical machinery to produce sperm, you are a male.

If you have the anatomical machinery to produce eggs, you are a female.

some people have both. What do you do with them?

Males always have a Y chromosome

Females never have a Y chromosome.

Some people have more than two chromosomes, what do you do with them?

Let them compete in the male category until there is such demand/cause célèbre to warrant a 3rd category.

Who the hell are you knowing 'many, many' top scientists? What field do you work in, how have you made these connections among 'top scientists' who have made it so absolutely clear to you that he is so off his rocker?

PhD wrote:

WOW. I think the only way one can argue that Noakes is NOT an idiot is to argue that he is biased and advocating for Semenya. Although this is probably not what she wants to hear - that she can run as long as she doesn't win. Awful reasoning. Ignore him.

I think this is the best response...Noakes' argument makes no sense once you look at it this way.

the answer is here wrote:

What's outrageous is that there is no clear test in place, so Semenya is currently being subjected to months of testing, is unable to compete, and is the subject of vicious rumours. And all because spectators felt she looked like a man, so now we're trying to invent a new test that will bar her from competing.

And your point is???

There are clear tests in place. The problem is there is eventually always an exception that tests the rules. This is one.

A dose of reality wrote:

And your point is???

There are clear tests in place. The problem is there is eventually always an exception that tests the rules. This is one.

Are there? My understanding is that there is a battery of tests, but there is not a clearly defined line for who is or is not female. Which would explain why, 8 months later, still no decision has been reached.

Does the IAAF have a definition of "male" and "female"? No. They have been trying for decades......DECADES.....and there is no consensus.

Hey Neb - why don't you tell us about the price of gasoline and oil.

A dose of reality wrote:

And your point is???

There are clear tests in place. The problem is there is eventually always an exception that tests the rules. This is one.

According to all the IAAF document I have looked at there is no clear testing protocol outlined, much less any sort of standards to evaluate testing against.

[quote]Mr. Obvious wrote:

some people have both. What do you do with them?

[quote]

Is what we call the "men's" class actually open to any human being that meets the qualifying time criteria? I believe it must be so or it would violate many countries' human rights laws.

If so, then it is not a question of determining if an individual is more male or more female and then putting them into that athletic class. Because "women's" class becomes an exclusive class and therefore one must 100% qualify for it. Anything less than 100% female puts one into the open class. Having a Y chromosome clearly makes one less than 100% female. XXY individuals are not being discriminated against when they are denied entry to the "women's" class because they have the "open" class in which they can compete.