BBC reports Charlie Francis, White, 61, dead from Cancer. He coached Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, Ben Johnson.

Francis was an athlete before he was a coach.

I'm not sticking up for the guy--I only met him briefly once at the York University indoor facility, and know basically nothing about him.

An opinion I do have, however, is that cancer is a crapshoot. I've known clean young athletes who died of cancer, and old smokers who continue on toward 90 yrs of age.

Sure, there MAY be identifiable risk factors, but I don't think anybody can conclude that 'roids caused, or contributed to, his cancer.

"Though the person quoted in the post above may disagree, this is a terrible loss to the track and field community."

How can you say that? His athletes were sheats who robbed clean athletes of medals and sponsorship dollars. Francis was a cheat. Your quote implies you favor cheating over clean competition. Francis was indeed a very vile person, notwithstanding his good qualities.

Glad someone's dead is not something that belongs on this board regardless of your opinion of what you think CF did for or to the sport. In fact, if you really feel that way, there would not be very many top track and field coaches left in this country

I'll take a handful of top coaches with real integrity over a boatload of scumwads, thanks.

So would I, but to be happy the guy suffered and died or to be so naive as to think that every other top sprint coach in this country wasn't/isn't doing the very same thing, is just lunacy.

[quote]General Mills wrote:

Ben Johnson got caught because he was stupid.

[quote]

Ben got caught because he was framed. According to CF, Ben Johnson wasn't using Stanzobol when he tested positive. Francis was clear that Ben was on drugs but that neither Ben J. (or any elite Spinter) would use Stanzobol during their competitive phase. Plus, Johnson tested positive for concentrations that would kill most horses.

I like some of the Charlie Daniel's Band's songs.

The sins of others don't excuse or erase his culpability for his own sins.

Ray wrote:

So would I, but to be happy the guy suffered and died or to be so naive as to think that every other top sprint coach in this country wasn't/isn't doing the very same thing, is just lunacy.

read charlie francis book "Speed Trap" it's his training theroy and some accounts of Ben. It's a good read

I ran with Charlie (he was Chuck in those days) at Stanford. He was one of the smartest people I ever met on that campus, and also (I say this affectionately, because I liked him) one of the most obnoxious. He knew best about everything. That combined with his extreme intelligence and articulateness was what made him an extraordinary strong coach. It's a tragedy that he'll be remembered as "Charlie the Chemist." He was also, may I point out, simply participating in what everybody else was doing. It made him sick to see his runners beaten time and again by other runners who were juicing, so he eventually surrendered to "The Dark Side." Knowing Charlie, I wasn't entirely shocked.

By the way, Chuck was having a mediocre senior year at Stanford (if you consider a 9.5 hundred yards mediocre, which he did) because of the training he was enduring -- and hating -- under the former Olympic Coach Payton Jordan. On his own that summer he would run 100 meters in 10.1 at the Pan-Am Games trials in Vancouver, one of the fastest times in the world that year – a time which would have shattered the school record if had he run it in a Stanford uniform. Chuck was barely aware of performance-enhancing drugs prior to his appearance in the Munich Games in ’72. By 1973, two years before the IOC banned anabolic steroids, Charlie took five milligrams of Dianabol a day for three weeks and transformed himself into Canada’s 100-meter sprint champion and one of the only Canadians of his era to defeat his great countryman, Olympic medalist Harry Jerome.

Ray wrote:Glad someone's dead is not something that belongs on this board regardless of your opinion of what you think CF did for or to the sport.

This is like a pissing contest against the wind, it makes no difference what people say as the man is dead, the people who make the comments have to still live their life so what they say is actually of no value to the dead but only the living.

thanks, you haven't posted in a long time and i, for one, have missed your posts.

did you and charlie ever run at the idaho state track? the 100 yard indoor straightaway for him, the 220 oval for you? some stanford guys did.

BBC Obituary wrote:

Francis also worked with world 100m record holder Tim Montgomery and multiple Olympic champion Marion Jones, who were later exposed as drug cheats.

I have a problem with this paragraph as written. They way this is written, it implies that Francis was responsible for Marion Jones and Tim Montgomery's drug use.

MJ and TM parted way with Trevor Graham, worked with Llewellyn Starks for a short time and then agreed to work with Francis. To my recollection, they were almost immediately banned from the European track circuit and dissolved the relationship within days due to the backlash and pressure from Nike. I think Charlie watched one workout.

To suggest that Francis "worked" with them is erroneous. To imply, at all, that he was responsible for or part of their drug use is completely misleading.

starmiler wrote:

By 1973, two years before the IOC banned anabolic steroids, Charlie took five milligrams of Dianabol a day for three weeks and transformed himself into Canada’s 100-meter sprint champion and one of the only Canadians of his era to defeat his great countryman, Olympic medalist Harry Jerome.

You see, I'll get crucified for this, but I have a big problem with these kinds of statements.

HE CHEATED in order to become those things. Why are we romancing this?

I'm sorry.....his passing is sad, and I did actually enjoy Speedtrap, but c'mon....he broke the rules, he got caught.

Skuj wrote:

HE CHEATED in order to become those things. Why are we romancing this?

I'm sorry.....his passing is sad, and I did actually enjoy Speedtrap, but c'mon....he broke the rules, he got caught.

It's a fair question but if one reads Francis' writing, there is far more nuance and subtlety to his thinking. He loved track and was arguably the best sprint mechanics coach around. He also readily admitted (after Johnson was framed and caught) that drugs were an intergral and necessary part of elite sprinting.

For those of us who have known this for some time, Francis' honesty was refreshing. The establishment, on the other hand, was not--and still is not--ready for such candor.

So, in his passing, what should we remember? I would rather remember him for all that he did for the sport. He revolutionized sprint training and, even after the disgrace of '88, continued to work with coaches and athletes who wanted to improve. He was also honest about his own drug use and that of his athletes. I appreciate that honesty especially in his passing.

[quote]starmiler wrote:

"He was also, may I point out, simply participating in what everybody else was doing. "

***

"star miler" I ran track in the 80's, was world ranked and I take great offense to this statement. Everybody else was not cheating. I for one was not. of the 68 members on the Canadian Team in 88, I figure 11 were doping. 9 of those were with Charlie. So, remove him and his cheating athletes, and Canada had a pretty clean Olympic Track Team team. Take him out of the equation, and doping in the 80's in Canada becomes relatively minor, mostly some throwers.

There were plenty of clean track athletes in the 80's, as there were plenty of dopers. I had a team mate from college get a silver in the triple in the 80's and later a gold. He was clean. Earl Jones got the bronze in 84. Clean. On our Canadian team Lynn Williams got 3rd in LA, 4and 5th in Korea and was clean. Greame Fell was 5th in the world champs in 87 clean. Angela Chalmers, bronze 92 clean. This list goes on and on and is much longer than those whom chose to cheat.

None of these people embarrassed themselves, their country, took undeserved prize money, took spots on teams that other people may be deserved. They just competed clean and honorable.

What if one of Charlie's "juiced" athletes beat out your 'clean' son for a spot on the Olympic Relay team. How would you feel about him then?

In fact, the majority of world class track athletes in non eastern block countries did not cheat back then. To use that as your excuse to justify your cheating it an insult to all of us who remained clean.

You go on, Star miler to say how Charlie beat the Great Harry Jerome after he doped, like you are bragging about Charlie doping? Look how much better he became when he cheated? Harry Jerome was a great runner. Go take a run through Stanley Park in Vancouver, right by the statue of Harry Jerome. Don't think they will be building a statue for Charlie any time soon.

I understand you were team mates and knew the man and he had many good qualities. He still choose to cheat, only came clean when he got caught, And always justified his cheating on that everyone else was doing it. Charlie was a man who could not admit that he was wrong to cheat. And, if you agree with Charlie, then you are almost lumping yourself "star miler" in with the cheaters. Did you cheat too?

Sure, there were other cheaters for sure. But justifying cheating because other people do it does not make it right.

As a coach you are suppose to mold young athletes. What kind of message are you giving them by encouraging them to cheat? Ben Johnson had a grade 9 education. Charlie had a Stanford Degree. Charlie tells Ben he needs to Cheat, Ben believes him. Remove Charlie, and you have a much more honorable team. Be an interesting question to pose Ben right now. Would he rather have not cheated and not suffered the embarrassment he went through and has to go through?

Again I say, this "honesty" came after he got caught. Until then, it was lies lies lies deny deny deny.

The message from CF was "only drugs can make that 1m difference and level the playing field".

I also disagree with my friend who stated that he had only the athlete's best interests at heart.

Ray wrote:

So would I, but to be happy the guy suffered and died or to be so naive as to think that every other top sprint coach in this country wasn't/isn't doing the very same thing, is just lunacy.

But Schumaker and Salazar are not because?

Too bad we all have to live with how he fucked the sport.