Wejo's quote on Boston

Chic Harley... wrote:

I'm a Ryan Hall fan, but Meb should get more credit. One factor you all aren't considering, you can sometimes run better than you think if you put yourself in position to win. Said another way you can "take it up a notch". Distance running is certainly partly psychological, and the psychology of covering surges and being there at the end, may push you beyond what you think you can run. Hall himself said he got bummed at the olympics when they ran away from him and he was "running his race", he may be better handling them running away from him now, but he's getting the same results. He needs to stay closer to those surges, then start picking them off.

Second, Meb raced for the win, Hall raced for a time and hoped he'd win, that is a time trial.

No, that was the best american time ever at Boston. All the posters bashing Hall are the runners who in high school sprinted the first half mile of cross country and then congratulated themselves for their "gutsy" 50th place finish. I'm pretty sure Hall has a good idea of what pace he can handle. In the end it doesn't matter what he did, the LR experts were going to bash anything short of victory. Sad.

How the hell can anyone say Meb raced better than Hall. Hall ran faster and placed higher.

This "put himself in a position to win" crap is nonesense. It makes no difference where you are at 10,15, 20 or 25 miles. It's where you are at the finish line, that is the ONLY place that counts.

In order to be able to put yourself in a position to win this race you needed to be at 26.2 miles in 2:05:52 and only 1 guy did that.

Hall raced better than Meb because the two are close to equal talents and conditioning and Hall was closer to the winner than Meb was at the finish line.

Maybe you liked the way Meb raced better but its results certainly were not as good as Hall's.

Not replying to you, but just in general: You guys all realize there is an advantage to drafting off of someone even in still conditions, right? It's not as great an advantage as when there's a headwind, but it's still there.

77765422 wrote:

Only on letsrun could the very owner of the site be put down. Sad!

That's not true. Owners of sites get put down all the time.

edumacator wrote:

Not replying to you, but just in general: You guys all realize there is an advantage to drafting off of someone even in still conditions, right? It's not as great an advantage as when there's a headwind, but it's still there.

The benefit to drafting is very small in still conditions, especially considering the relatvely slow speeds and different sizes of the runners. To some people (especially taller people) the benefits of drafting is out weighed by having to conform to someone elses pace and the dangers of get jostled, bumped or run into in a pack. And some people are just more comfortable running their own pace or controlling the pace (i.e. Paula) and comfort equals less wasted energy in a race.

Even in windy conditions there has to be a direct headwind for the guy behind to get much of a real benefit.

This aint NASCAR and we aint running 100 MPH with identical bodies.

Yes, we understand there is an advantage to drafting off of someone.

Do you understand that Hall could have lined up directly behind Cheruiyot and drafted for as long as he could and would still have finished far behind him in the end?

And then after losing contact he would have faded and may have been passed by more than two additional people.

edumacator wrote:

Not replying to you, but just in general: You guys all realize there is an advantage to drafting off of someone even in still conditions, right? It's not as great an advantage as when there's a headwind, but it's still there.

Yes, but it's still overrated. If someone does well controlling their own pace, that's what they should do. The air moving past you is moving past everyone else, too. It doesn't cease to exist in between the leader and the next person. If races are run at an even pace, the wind is not going to affect you as much as if you were following someone who is pushing it faster than you would otherwise go. So, if you're trying to beat someone who's going faster than you, stay behind them, but choosing to run even splits can be just as good if not better as long as the pace you are doing is your own and not someone else's.

X-Runner wrote:

Yes, we understand there is an advantage to drafting off of someone.

Do you understand that Hall could have lined up directly behind Cheruiyot and drafted for as long as he could and would still have finished far behind him in the end?

And then after losing contact he would have faded and may have been passed by more than two additional people.

What? You're crazy. All he had to do was suck it up and COMPETE. According to the LR genuises that is.

I was discussing last night with my wife the idea that I don't think finishing time or place is the sole way to evaluate one's performance in the marathon.

Sure I see the absurdity of that statement but I stand behind it.

Having said that I think Boston is the one course where people can come from behind to win. Maybe we can go through the Boston finishes the last 20 years and point out instances where the winner came from behind to win.

Yet at the same time, I think at some point the race has to be a competition and you have to be there to compete if you are trying to win. There are benefits to running with other people. If you want to win the race generally this is how you have to run.

I think if all of a sudden someone throws down a 4:30 mile at mile 10 of a marathon, you don't have to go with them right away. You can run a 4:40 mile and try and slowly catch up. I have no problem with Hall doing that.

But once you regain the pack if it's later in the race and they make another surge, likely you need to go with them if you want to try and win. Meb did this and Ryan didn't. I think what Ryan did was easier than what Meb did. I think Merga's 2 second finish ahead of Hall was was more impressive than Hall's run.

If you want to say, "he beat him by 2 seconds" that is all that matters, I can see the argument I just don't agree with it. Some people have different goals in the competition. Merga's was to win, Hall's was to run as well as he could.

They are different goals and can end in different results.

OK they had different goals. Merga's was to win, Hall's was to run as well as he could.

And by those goals Merga failed and Hall succeeded.

I see, you're not judging the results, you are judging the goals.

If Hall had the ability to win and ran as well as he could then he would have won.

Unless you are saying he didn't run as well as he could.

I must say I never ran a marathon so you would be much more qualified to judge effort on this.

This event is crazy and I have seen some pretty good athletes have trouble judging effort throughout the race.

77765422 wrote:

Only on letsrun could the very owner of the site be put down. Sad!

NOOB

Didn't read all the thread.

And I'm not sure if this applies to the marathon.

But Dave Wottle and Yuriy both ran their own races during their Olympic 800m finals without worrying about what the pack was doing and they won.

Ya gotta be there to be there.

As a general rule I try to take the opposite position of Wejo but in this case he is dead on.

At some point in the "race" you have to actually race. Executing a race plan that is no longer applicable is not racing - it's going for position. We’ve all done it and many times we often wondered what could have been if we went with the move. There is nothing wrong with going for position and money but for Ryan to think that he was still in it at 24 miles is delusional.

At Boston, Meb gave himself a better shot at the win and Hall won more money than Meb. This time it didn't work out for Meb but maybe he felt that 1 time out of 10 chances it could work?

The real question is; what gave Meb the luxury or balls to go for it? First and foremost his NYC win, then his silver medal and then probably a greater personal belief that he can compete with these guys. Ryan doesn’t seem to have the results in hand yet to allow him to go for it even though he clearly has the talent.

And this is the frustrating part about being a Ryan Hall fan.

That's a hugely subjective statement.

Hall did what he though what he had to run to the best of his fitness level and ability that day. In most years his performance and his race strategy would have won the race. It's not that he ran poorly or not smart; it's just that somebody else had an unbelievable day and he got beat.

If Hall was going to win he would have had to PR. I don't know if that would have been a realistic expectation for him when he toed the starting line in Hopkinton. If fact, it seems to me that he would have been more likely to fail if that was his goal going into the race.

This seems like a chicken/egg discussion, but I hope it goes on for a while. Interesting perspectives.

He did put himself in a position to run faster. He lost some of his planned pace from fatigue. Don't say he did not place himself in a position to squeeze more from himself.

He said he planned to run a steady pace and try to win at the end. He even kept the idea of winning until mile 24 when he saw the lead helicopters.

You have to give Hall some credit here… he always goes for it. Changing your strategy 1 out of 10 times is common sense.. It’s not being a puss. How many times hall go for it from start? Almost every marathon he raced he was there with the main group going for the win. You know that popular saying “ fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.” Imagine if Cheruiyot and Kebede ran out of gas and faded and hall just managed to outkick merga in the last few meters.. we would be calling this race the greatest marathon by an American in all time. And we will be extremely proud of hall for running a perfectly executed race. Bottom line here.. no one thought that this race would be won in 2:05:52 and unless you knew that, you have no right to bash hall!!

NPR wrote:

If you break the wind for your opponent and push yourself to a minute faster but then he blows by you in the final few miles to win the race, having conserved his energy while you pushed for a fast time, how happy are you going to be with your time?

[quote]

[quote]Sally Selling Sea Shells wrote:

Yet you worship Wanjuri for leading the whole way in the Olympics and for Pre for being a front runner.

Um... no I don't. I am "NPR". The OP was "MPR" I disagree with the OP.

To answer your question, alot happier than I would be if I followed a silly surge and eneded up blowing up and finishing 10th rather than 2nd (or 4th in this case).

I agree with that.