WHO was the best Steeplechaser of the decade of the 70s?

Let's not forget Howie Orndorff from the mid 70s.

I think you are dismissing Rono too much. Malinowski only beat Rono in September of 78' when Rono had obviously peaked clear back in April for the US college season and then totally dominated the Commonwealth Games race in August.

Bottom line is Rono took the event to a new level in 1978 by shattering the World record front running all the way in a college dual race. There is a strong case that Rono's 78 year alone puts him at the top of that list.

Ryan Foreman wrote:

I think you are dismissing Rono too much. Malinowski only beat Rono in September of 78' when Rono had obviously peaked clear back in April for the US college season and then totally dominated the Commonwealth Games race in August.

Bottom line is Rono took the event to a new level in 1978 by shattering the World record front running all the way in a college dual race. There is a strong case that Rono's 78 year alone puts him at the top of that list.

I wouldn't say that Rono took it to a new level, in fact Malinowski was more familiar with Rono's territory and Rono was. Malinowski's 75 and 76 seasons were every bit as good as Henry's 78 season.

An undefeated Malinowski can't be penalized for the race he wasn't in, and Rono shouldn't get a pass for the race he was in and loss.

Malinowski

8:09.11 2 OG Montréal 28 Jul 1976

8:09.70 1 OG Moskva 31 Jul 1980

8:11.63 1 Berlin 18 Aug 1978

8:12.23 1 DNG Stockholm 10 Aug 1976

8:12.62 2 DNG Stockholm 1 Jul 1975

8:13.4h 1 Weltk Köln 1 Sep 1976

8:13.66 1 Helsinki 26 Jun 1975

8:15.04 1 EC Roma 7 Sep 1974

8:15.08 1 EC Praha 3 Sep 1978

8:15.37 2 Stockholm 10 Jun 1975

8:15.50 1 Koblenz 7 Sep 1978

8:16.33 1 Stockholm 4 Jul 1978

8:16.4h 1 Saint-Maur 10 Sep 1975

8:16.94 2 Stockholm 5 Jul 1977

8:18.56 1h1 OG Montréal 25 Jul 1976

8:21.15 1s2 OG Moskva 28 Jul 1980

8:21.6h 1 Warszawa 23 Sep 1973

8:23.60 1h2 EC Roma 4 Sep 1974

8:25.58 2h3 EC Praha 1 Sep 1978

8:27.92 4 OG München 7 Sep 1972

8:28.2 2h4 OG München 1 Sep 1972

8:29.80 1h2 OG Moskva 26 Jul 1980

Rono

8:05.4h 1 Seattle WA 13 May 1978

8:12.39 1 NCAA Eugene OR 3 Jun 1978

8:14.75 1 Eugene OR 15 Apr 1978

8:15.82 1 Al Jazair 25 Jul 1978

8:16.2h 1 Mombasa 17 Jun 1978

8:16.8h 1 Helsinki 28 Jun 1978

8:17.51 2 Koblenz 7 Sep 1978

8:17.92 1 Champaign IL 2 Jun 1979

Here's a year by year comparison.

Malinowski

8:11.6 1 Berlin 18-Aug 1978

8:15.1 1 EC Praha 3-Sep 1978

8:15.5 1 Koblenz 7-Sep 1978

8:16.3 1 Stockholm 4-Jul 1978

8:25.6 2h3 EC Praha 1-Sep 1978

8:16.9 2 Stockholm 5-Jul 1977

8:09.1 2 OG Montréal 28-Jul 1976

8:12.2 1 DNG Stockholm 10-Aug 1976

8:13.4h 1 Weltk Köln 1-Sep 1976

8:18.6 1h1 OG Montréal 25-Jul 1976

8:12.6 2 DNG Stockholm 1-Jul 1975

8:13.7 1 Helsinki 26-Jun 1975

8:15.4 2 Stockholm 10-Jun 1975

8:16.4h 1 Saint-Maur 10-Sep 1975

8:15.0 1 EC Roma 7-Sep 1974

8:23.6 1h2 EC Roma 4-Sep 1974

8:21.6h 1 Warszawa 23-Sep 1973

8:27.9 4 OG München 7-Sep 1972

8:28.2 2h4 OG München 1-Sep 1972

Rono

8:17.92 1 NCAA Champaign IL 2 Jun 1979

8:05.4h 1 Seattle WA 13 May 1978

8:12.39 1 NCAA Eugene OR 3 Jun 1978

8:14.75 1 Eugene OR 15 Apr 1978

8:15.82 1 Al Jazair 25 Jul 1978

8:16.2h 1 Mombasa 17 Jun 1978

8:16.8h 1 Helsinki 28 Jun 1978

8:17.51 2 Koblenz 7 Sep 1978

8:31.1 2 NCAA Champaign IL 4-Jun 1977

8:29.0 1 Mombasa 19-Jun 1976

malmo wrote:

An undefeated Malinowski can't be penalized for the race he wasn't in, and Rono shouldn't get a pass for the race he was in and loss.

What universe are you in? Yes Malinowski can be penalized and yes Rono should get a pass. Obviously Malinowsky couldn't have possibly run in an American college race. But he can't not run a race and then say you were at that level. Cite me times for Malinowski in the spring of 1978 that are anywhere remotely close to Rono's? If you are going to compare the 78' season you have to do that. Using a race where Malinowsky was at his peak while Rono had peaked a full 6 months before and could have understandably called it quits for the season is a terrible comparison. Moreover, Rono's WR is all the more incredible in that he did it virtually alone with no rival pushing him like Malinowsky had.

I can see Malinowsky topping the rankings in that he was at a high level for a longer number of years than Rono was and that almost his entire career was in the 70s. I just maintain that he never reached the plateau that Rono reached in the 70s.

ryan foreman wrote:Moreover, Rono's WR is all the more incredible in that he did it virtually alone with no rival pushing him like Malinowsky had

a wabbit can offer you ~1s/lap thru drafting

if rono had had one for 4 or 5 laps, then you are looking at a time nearer 8-flat !!!

also i believe conditions weren't great for that run ( can someone describe them ) & also we need to know the splits ( i can "flatten out" the km splits if someone provides them )

malmo wrote:

silly old fossil wrote:

Bron Malinowski undisputed. Personally, I feel Rono should be ranked above Garderud, who had many failures at Munich, Rome, Christchurch (1975) Dusseldorf (1977), etc.

Keino should be ranked higher. He absolutely dominated the whole last lap at Munich...he didn't just win the sprint off the last hurdle.

Malmo, didn't Garderud break WR AFTER Munich (8:20)...more demerit points. Can Montreal atone for all of that?

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Garderud had "many failures"? His WR after the 72 games was a surprise. He was 2nd in a close race at the 1974 Euros in Rome. As far as I'm aware of, he's never been in New Zealand and retired after Montreal in 1976.

If this guy had many failures, please explain why almost every steeplechaser who ever lived would gladly trade places?

Fair enough, I'll accept that, based on the fact that athletes got the RARE opportunity to shine in major championships back in the day...compared to now. The Brits had it best of all worlds, the Canadians also; the Americans really got short-changed as to major champs they could compete in.

1975 New Zealand Games, a follow up to 1974 BCG was a financial bust. Brought in a lot of internationals who did not compete particularly well. Garderud & Doug Brown in the steeple. Tony Waldrop in the 1500.

This was Henry Rono's "coming out" party. He placed in the steeple, 5,000 & 10,000 all in the space of a long weekend.

Malmo, did Keino revolutionize the steeple, in that after his Munich win the steeple WR took a pounding the rest of the decade? Did the other steeplers say "time to get serious, if a novice can win Olympic gold".

George, how say u?

I'm not seeing how Keino revolutionized the steeplechase? Jipcho made the first big drop then went to the ITA (pro) circuit. Then is was the Garderud/Malinowski show.

looking at progression, jipcho only chiseled the wr from 8'24 to 8'19 in 4y by '73

assuming he had ~30s differential, that gives equivalent to about 7'50 flat, which was not only poor for him but showed how weak the wr still was, as emiel held flat wr at 7'37 ( & that was weak anyway as keino ran a stupendous 7'39 in '65 on dirt & pretty much solo as far as i'm aware - probably worth near 7'30 if he'd run on synthetic )

you'd probably want the steeplechase wr holder to have flat speed within about ~ 5s of the flat wr & that indicates the record shouda been something like 7'35 - 7'40 + 30s back in the early 70s -> ~ 8'05 - 8'10

ventolin^2 wrote:

looking at progression, jipcho only chiseled the wr from 8'24 to 8'19 in 4y by '73

assuming he had ~30s differential, that gives equivalent to about 7'50 flat, which was not only poor for him but showed how weak the wr still was, as emiel held flat wr at 7'37 ( & that was weak anyway as keino ran a stupendous 7'39 in '65 on dirt & pretty much solo as far as i'm aware - probably worth near 7'30 if he'd run on synthetic )

you'd probably want the steeplechase wr holder to have flat speed within about ~ 5s of the flat wr & that indicates the record shouda been something like 7'35 - 7'40 + 30s back in the early 70s -> ~ 8'05 - 8'10

Hey, we´re talking about the 70s ranking here. WTF has all this nonsense to do with this?

i'll keep it simple for you as you obviously have comprehension problems :

the record shouda been nearer 8'10 in '73 rather than 8'19

I'm having comprehension problems as well, Eldrick? THe steeplechase record was 8:14 in 1973. Like the tautophrase says, "it is what it is."

Disproving your point.

For a single race this would applicable however...neither a season nor career is made up of one race.

Well....not it's not however if you're into excuse making than you can try.

For one race....maybe.

Hey! How about that Ray Hughes! 5th ranked in '65 and 6th ranked in '01. Age must've slowed him a bit, but talk about longevity!

Ray never quite made the US team. He did run 2:19 at age 35 in Boston (about 1974). He was quite a character -- I have wondered some times if malmo knew him. I think that he trained under Igloy for a while.

He was living in MtBaldy when I met him (while I was in grad school) and he helped spur my running.

Interesting that there is another US steepler by that name now.

ryan foreman wrote:

What universe are you in?

Not yours.

ryan foreman wrote:

I just maintain that he never reached the plateau that Rono reached in the 70s.

I disagree

8:05.4 1 Rono 1978 Seattle

8:09.1 2 Malinowski 1976 Montreal

8:11.6 1 Malinowski 1978 Berlin

8:12.2 1 Malinowski 1976 Stockholm

8:12.4 1 Rono 1978 Eugene

8:12.6 2 Malinowski 1975 Stockholm

8:13.4 1 Malinowski 1976 Weltk

8:13.7 1 Malinowski 1975 Helsinki

8:14.8 1 Rono 1978 Eugene

8:15.0 1 Malinowski 1974 Rome

8:15.1 1 Malinowski 1978 Praha

8:15.4 2 Malinowski 1975 Stockholm

8:15.5 1 Malinowski 1978 Koblenz

8:15.8 1 Rono 1978 AL Jazair

8:16.2 1 Rono 1978 Mombasa

8:16.3 1 Malinowski 1978 Stockholm

8:16.4 1 Malinowski 1975 Saint-Maur

8:16.8 1 Rono 1978 Helsinki

8:16.9 2 Malinowski 1977 Stockholm

8:17.5 2 Rono 1978 Koblenz

8:17.9 1 Rono 1979 Champaigh

8:18.6 1h Malinowski 1976 Montreal

8:18.6 1h Rono 1978 Eugene

8:19.0 1 Malinowski 1978 Tokyo

8:21.6 1 Malinowski 1973 Warszawa

8:23.6 1h Malinowski 1974 Rome

8:24.0 1 Rono 1978 Pullman

8:25.6 2h Malinowski 1978 Praha

8:26.5 1 Rono 1978 Comm Games

8:27.9 4 Malinowski 1972 Munich

8:28.2 2h Malinowski 1972 Munich

8:29.0 1 Rono 1976 Mombasa

8:31.1 2 Rono 1977 Champaign

malmo wrote:I'm having comprehension problems as well? THe steeplechase record was 8:14 in 1973. Like the tautophrase says, "it is what it is."

Wiki & Athletix.org both give it progression as this :

8' 08" 02 Anders Garderud, SWE, 28 Jul 1976, Montreal

8' 09" 8+ Anders Garderud, SWE, 01 Jul 1975, Stockholm

8' 10" 4+ Anders Garderud, SWE, 25 Jun 1975, Oslo

8' 19" 1+ Ben Jipcho, KEN, 19 Jun 1973, Helsinki

8' 20" 8+ Ben Jipcho, KEN, 15 Jan 1973, Lagos

I do think the record now at 7'53 is relatively strong ( albeit Boulami was a doper )

ventolin^2 wrote:

Wiki & Athletix.org both give it progression as this :

8' 08" 02 Anders Garderud, SWE, 28 Jul 1976, Montreal

8' 09" 8+ Anders Garderud, SWE, 01 Jul 1975, Stockholm

8' 10" 4+ Anders Garderud, SWE, 25 Jun 1975, Oslo

8' 19" 1+ Ben Jipcho, KEN, 19 Jun 1973, Helsinki

8' 20" 8+ Ben Jipcho, KEN, 15 Jan 1973, Lagos

I do think the record now at 7'53 is relatively strong ( albeit Boulami was a doper )

You do realize that Wiki is an "open source encyclopedia"? Which means that the information is only as good as what is fed into it.

A better source of information than the ones you've cited, try this one, Eldrick.

malmo wrote:

A better source of information than the ones you've cited, try this one, Eldrick.

http://ifnt.fizyka.amu.edu.pl/tw/la/sta/hrs/m-wrp.htm

There are lists and then there are lists. Obvious ommissions on that link that I provided (Horace Ashenfelter 8:45.4 WR in 1952), apparently a list of IAAF "ratified" marks, which didn't happen before 1954.

9.49.8 Josef Ternström SWE Malmö Jul 04, 1914

9.36.0 NWJ Ernesto Ambrosini ITA Paris Jun 09, 1923

9.33.4 NWJ Paul Bontemps FRA Paris Jun 09, 1924

9.31.2 NWJ Félix Roman FRA Marselle Jun 07, 1925

9.25.2 Toivo Loukola FIN Helsinki Jul 09, 1928

9.21.8 Toivo Loukola FIN Amsterdam Aug 04, 1928

9.14.5 Joseph McCluskey USA Stanford Jul 16, 1932

9.09.4 Volmari Iso-Hollo FIN Lahti May 28, 1933

9.08.2 Harold Manning USA New York Jul 12, 1936

9.03.8 Volmari Iso-Hollo FIN Berlin Aug 08, 1936

9.03.4 Erik Elmsäter SWE Ostersund Aug 22, 1943

8.59.6 Erik Elmsäter SWE Stockholm Aug 04, 1944

8.49.8 Vladimir Kazantsev URS Moscow Jul 10, 1951

8.48.6 Vladimir Kazantsev URS Kiev Jun 12, 1952

8.45.4 Horace Ashenfelter USA Helsinki Jul 25, 1952

8.44.4 Olavi Rinteenpää FIN Helsinki Jul 02, 1953

IAAF ratified

• 8.49.6 Sandor Rozsnyoi HUN Bern Aug 28, 1954

• 8.47.8 Pentti Karvonen FIN Helsinki Jul 01, 1955

• 8.45.4 Pentti Karvonen FIN Olso Jul 15, 1955

• 8.45.4* Vasiliy Vlasenko URS Moskow Aug 18, 1955

• 8.41.2 Jerzy Chromik POL Brno Aug 31, 1955

• 8.40.2 Jerzy Chromik POL Budapest Sep 11, 1955

• 8.39.8 Semyon Rzhishchin URS Moscow Aug 14, 1956

• 8.35.6 Sandor Rozsnyoi HUN Budapest Sep 16, 1956

• 8.35.6* Semyon Rzhishchin URS Tallinn Jul 21, 1958

• 8.32.0 Jerzy Chromik POL Warsaw Aug 02, 1958

• 8.31.4 Zdzislaw Krzyszkowiak POL Tula Jun 26, 1960

• 8.31.2 Grigoriy Taran URS Kiev May 28, 1961

• 8.30.4 Zdzislaw Krzyszkowiak POL Walcz Aug 10, 1961

• 8.29.6 Gaston Roelants BEL Leuven Sep 07, 1963

• 8.26.4 Gaston Roelants BEL Brussels Aug 07, 1965

• 8.24.2 Jouko Kuha FIN Stockholm Jul 17, 1968

• 8.22.2 Vladimir Dudin URS Kiev Aug 19, 1969

• 8.22.0 Kerry O'Brien AUS Berlin Jul 04, 1970

• 8.20.8 Anders Gärderud SWE Helsinki Sep 14, 1972

• 8.19.8 Benjamin Jipcho KEN Helsinki May 19, 1973

• 8.14.0 Benjamin Jipcho KEN Helsinki Jun 27, 1973

• 8.10.4 Anders Gärderud SWE Oslo Jun 25, 1975

• 8.09.8 Anders Gärderud SWE Stockholm Jul 01, 1975

• 8.08.0 Anders Gärderud SWE Montreal Jul 28, 1976

• 8.05.4 Henry Rono KEN Seattle May 13, 1978

• 8.05.35 Peter Koech KEN Stockholm Jul 03, 1989

• 8.02.08 Moses Kiptanui KEN Zürich Aug 19, 1992

• 7.59.18 Moses Kiptanui KEN Zürich Aug 16, 1995

• 7.59.08 Wilson Boit Kipketer KEN Zürich Aug 13, 1997

• 7.55.72 Bernard Barmasai KEN Köln Aug 24, 1997

• 7.55.28 Brahim Boulami MAR Brussels Aug 24, 2001

• 7.53.63 Saif Saaeed Shaheen QAT Brussels Sep 03, 2004