Likewise, I'm tired of Democrats claiming to be the "voice of the people" just because they have the guns.
Likewise, I'm tired of Democrats claiming to be the "voice of the people" just because they have the guns.
They didn't vote Obama in because of health care. They voted him in because they were sick of Bush, the wars, and the terrible economy. Plus McCain was 90 years old.
You think people really thought of the 60 seat majority aligning with Obama to "get things done"? You give people way too much credit.
How about the pole between the 2 fingers on the right and the finger and thumb on the left
no poll will be reputable with regard to this HC bill because it isn't about health care. If it was, then we wouldn't have to wait 4 years to realize the benefits. The current uninsured's needs will still be there in 2011, 2012 & 2013, but the reorm won't be.
The sooner everyone stops thinking of themselves as a Democrat or Republican, a Conservative or Liberal, the better off our nation will be.
Independent thinker wrote:
The sooner everyone stops thinking of themselves as a Democrat or Republican, a Conservative or Liberal, the better off our nation will be.
That! This is real life, not a team sport. People are too worried about their "guys" tell them to think.
snack-pack wrote:
And you come to LetsRun for clarification?
Is this your issue with what I wrote? I'm not writing a dissertation. It just a discussion.
Public opinion polls are not a valid method of inquiry if the goal is to ascertain the validity of a given policy. The only thing a public opinion poll tells you is the response of a person who participated in the poll. The question of whether we should have universal healthcare should never be addressed by public opinion polls.
Dude, like 70% of americans don't even really know what healthcare is.... So why do you want to know whether they're in favor of it or not? Most of them are like, "Uh... I guess.."
Keep in mind that prior to invading Iraq ~85% of Americans supported an invasion. How many of them think it was a good idea now? Just because polls are favorable in the short-term doesn't mean its a good long-term decision.
The inverse also is true. As an example, the people of Wyoming fought violently to prevent Grand Teton National Park from being formed. Now try to find someone in Wyoming who thinks preserving that land was a bad idea. Same thing happened through out Alaska in the late 1970s.
No. All their promises are lies.
Martin van Buren wrote:
Anyone? I've heard multiple statistics that favor both sides. Can we please set the record straight?
I will set the record straight for you ( I am not listing my references, you can google this if you want) -
* Yes, the majority of americans think that the healthcare bill passed was not a good one
* HOWEVER....usually a good 10-15% of those who do not think it was a good bill, don't like it NOT because it was a "socialist take over health care by the gov't." No, they don't like it because it wasn't "liberal" enough, because it didn't inject more gov't intervention. So republicans railing on and on about how a LARGE majority of americans don't like the bill, and then going on about why americans don't like it are only partly telling the truth. Many don't like it NOT because of republican complaints, but quite the opposite: because republicans killed provisions (like the public option) that many did like. It's important to know why people don't like something.
* ALSO: another big poll ( I think newsweek) showed that a majority of americans liked the major provisions in the bill. So, as others pointed out, many who don't like it don't actually know what is in it or why they don't like it.
* MORE: when asked whether they would like this bill passed, or no bill at all passed, a majority of americans said "pass this bill." Yes, one can argue that the option doesn't have to be "no bill at all", but the reality is: the way the gov't works, after this exhaustive battle, if this bill did not pass, there would absolutely be "no bill at all" for a loooong time
* MORE: when asked "who do you trust more on healthcare , Obama or the Repubs in congress", Obama wins. When asked "who do you trust more on healthcare , the Dems in congress or the Repubs in congress", DEMS won.
LASTLY: the public option, arguably the most "socialist" part of the bill, had majority support by the american people AND american doctors (NEJM). However, the right went haywire over it, and got it killed off. So much for listening to the public.
SO........ if you read the statement "the majority of americans think that the healthcare bill passed was not a good one" and conclude that this means a) a majority of americans think this bill was a gov't takeover of healthcare, and/or b) a majority of americans think the dems went too far with gov't intervention in healthcare, and/or c) the majority of americans wish the repubs and not Obama had been leading this fight for change on healthcare and/or d) the majority of americans are really angry at Obama and the dems for this bill, YOU'D BE WRONG.
THINGS ARE NOT SIMPLE AND BLACK AND WHITE. The bill was not perfect, but the repubs are simplifying and misreading and misrepresenting the polls. One needs to look deeper at other questions inside such polls to get a fuller picture. I've given you that picture, and it doesn't look so scary for dems, nor so optimistic for repubs.
Wrong answer. 50 years ago when families and communities still existed there was something of a social net, yet, FDR, Truman, Eisenhower and Nixon still saw the need for universal healthcare because it was not moral to let people die because of a lack of access. That is what is at issue here. Do we let 45,000 people die a year because of lack of access. Is if moral to profit from a denial of care. Is it moral to profit at all is another more fundamental question for another thread.As for dead wood, sir, have you ever heard of the working poor. Many of these people simply do not earn enough, and they are further compromised by structural shifts in our labor force, as well as profit-motivated offshoring, that have eliminated their jobs forever (that is in a nation of employer-sponsored health insurance). These people will never have a chance at preventative treatment and they will die.Worshipping the dollar is about worshipping greed and it is immoral period. Some will claim that innovation and the American Dream were made possible by this. Perhaps up to a point, say the late 1960s in one flavor, and the 1990s in another, and finally a mere shadow of a flavor under W. But the American Dream is gone because of this ideal. If people will not innovate because they can't screw someone over, then let them sit on their butts while people who are motivated by more than money rebuild this country before it cannibalizes itself. If doctors and bankers or CEOs won't work because they are not receiving their self-determined apportionments of remuneration, then let them sit out too while people who are properly motivated enter the medical profession. The bankers and CEOs should be nothing more than electrical lineman who ensure the cash like AC power flows, and nothing more. The actual value add of CEOs and bankers is marginal. Don't believe me; look into employee-owned cooperatives and eco-villages and sustainable urban communities, and other initiatives that restructure modes of living while realigning our society towards a community set or moral values. The end of our current gluttony and selfishness is nigh, at least it is hoped.
Carnivore 69 wrote:
And the biggest problem is that we don't worship the dollar enough, we are trying to carry the unmotivated dead wood in our society, which seems to keep growing daily. Let the dead wood go adrift and focus on helping those who help themselves.
Thank you for that. I was thinking the same thing when Carnivore wrote that we don't worship the dollar enough. It's true that our worship of the dollar initially led to innovation and a high standard of living (for some), but it has turned very, very ugly. And it will get uglier.
Carnivore 69 wrote:
On some sort of healthcare reform, it is probably 95% for, 5% against.
On this particular bill, it is about 37% for, 63% against.
They could have done way better by listening to the other side on this one.
Are you *****serious? The other side (the do nothing Republicans) simply caved in to the insurance industry and tried to kill any health reform! Stall, stall, and then stall a little longer was their strategy. If this (or a step in the right direction) was not passed now, it would not have passed. You are right that most Americans do want healthcare reform and this was a start. We now can expect some compromise and progress over the next decade. I would love to see the Republicans help, but the way the party is at this point in time, I do not expect it until many of them are voted out. I am a Republican, but am very upset with their "elitist" attitude. When 40+ million Americans are without healthcare and our rates continue to skyrocket, there is a huge problem!!!
Reputable Poll wrote:
I have one. Its the election results from November 2008. Obama ran with healthcare reform as one of his main goals (if not THE main goal) and he blew out McCain. In addition to this, the American people voted in a 60 seat majority for the Dems knowing that they would most likely help Obama pass healthcare reform. This has been coming for a long time. I'm tired of Republican's claiming to be "the voice of the people" just because they are yelling the loudest.
Amen, Amen, I am a Republican that is embarrassed by my party; they need to "get onboard" or get a new job! The American people need this bill (it needs to be refined in the future) My daughter works in a hospital emergency room and sees the uninsured coming in constantly to get care! Who do you think pays for that care? (yes, you and I) There has to be a better way!
A reasonable poll should be the November elections. Beyond that, the presidential election in 2012. My prediction is that Obama is a one-term president, and he should know it by now.
Are you kidding? FDR went 3 terms and would have gone more if he hadn't died in office because the public loved what he did for them. HE was a real public servant. Imagine that!LBJ would have gone further if he had wanted.The presidents who transform and redeem our national ethos are rewarded with second terms. It will be the same for Obama.
Krayzelburg wrote:
A reasonable poll should be the November elections. Beyond that, the presidential election in 2012. My prediction is that Obama is a one-term president, and he should know it by now.
My friend, history has taught us of the long-term destruction that the presidency of FDR hath wrought. We should know better, by now, than to go down this road again.
FDR and his awful social engineering projects prolonged the Great Depression and began an ever-steepening slippery slope toward a government that is out of control in its immensity and encroachment where it doesn't belong.
Obama, in turn, is steepening the slope even further with his radical leftist agenda. I shudder to think what our country will be like in 20 years. I think most people in the country, even if not very politically savvy, recognize an agenda that is radical, ill-conceived and out of sync with basic common sense.
The elections will tell the tale. I need rant and rave no further.
The vote was 219-212, the real deal. No bogus polls subject to interpretation. Congress is not the BCS. Not a beauty padgeant.