Breaking a 9:00 Two Mile

lookingforward, see how spring track goes and reevaluate. Take a week off to rest and then embark upon the 1000-mile summer (probably before your senior year, assuming you have used your junior year to build up to it). That's 12 weeks of 12 miles per day, split into two runs per day with just one 12 mile run on Sunday (maybe 4 and 8 on most days). Run by feel. Run easy when feeling like shit. Let it rip when feeling ok, but DON'T race the training. Core, stretching, and heeding aches and pains when necessary. Pretty simple formula. If you have talent, that will get it done and prep you well for college.

And by the way, I'm not advocating jumping right into an 80+ mile week right after taking a week off (and that's assuming mileage was already lowered during the tapering of the end of track season). I'm saying build up to it. Some weeks will be lower and some higher, but the basic formula is 12 miles per day. Personally, I would run a summer of 65-70 mile weeks before junior year first, see how you respond, see if you can hold it through winter. Training is a process of stimulus and ADAPTATION. You get either one of them wrong, you get burned out, stale, and/or injured.

Flagpole,

I hate to bother writing since your post is great and I am embarrassed at not having stressed the limitations of the talent vs quick improvement with little training relationship.

However, what I wrote was, "Running 9:00 on 50-60 does not take extreme talent but it will take more than 2 years and giving up running 8:40 on 70-100." Which is different from "running 9:00 for 2 miles in high school" that you quoted. I can see why you inferred the "in high school" part so I need to clarify.

I would rate extreme as more than exceptional or outstanding. I would rate Webb and Ritz and there ilk as having extreme talent. That is enough talent that they would have broken 9:00 in high school on any consistent training. I would say that every year the group of high schoolers who break 9:00 have exceptional or outstanding talent. The group I was talking about, that can break 9:00 in high school on near perfect training or will qualify for DI nationals, have superior talent. I think 4:30 on minimal training shows the next level down or significant talent, the minimal amount necessary to run a DI provisional time in a track event and they will break 9:00 eventually if they try hard enough.

OZKVvd490 wrote:

Running 9:00 on 50-60 does not take extreme talent but it will take more than 2 years and giving up running 8:40 on 70-100.

What do you think "extreme talent" is?

Since only 19 HS boys ran under 9:00 for 2M in 2009, I would argue that sub 9 requires extreme talent. The fastest was 8:49.79!

but retire if you hit 18 and still haven't broken 9, right?

Today I don't have the patience to read and try to decipher your qualifications about what "extreme" talent means to you. If somehow we're in agreement then fine. I'm just letting this kid know that 9:00 for 2 miles in high school shows extreme talent, whether it was done on 20 miles a week or 100 miles a week. 9:00 is what separates the elite high school runner from the just very good (and anything slower than 10:00 is loserdom of course).

OP: You don't need to look so far down the road. Take it in smaller chunks. Make it your goal to run 15-20 seconds faster than you can run now. When you accomplish that, set the goal posts farther back. But keep them in sight. Maybe someday then you'll run 9:00. Maybe even in HS. I'd hate for you to run 9:10 or 9:15 and be disappointed though. Those are fine performances as well.

As to your questions of how hard it is to improve as you near a goal, my experience is that the improvement curve comes in chunks and plateaus, which is what yours already looks like. I sat at around 31:00 and change for 10K for over 2.5 years, then in the space of 6 weeks lopped 2 minutes off that time. You might even off at say 9:10 and stay there for awhile and then just when you are thinking that's as good as you are going to get, you catch a flier and run 8:55, in one day. Strange things happen.

There's as much art as there is science to this game. Go get'em Tiger.

Flagpole is right; a sub 9:00 two mile takes rare skill, and is most definitely exceptional. One must not only possess genetic gifts, but also the drive necessary to train consistently in the face of setbacks and boredom. Not to mention it is a talent in and of itself to be able to pound out 90 mile weeks with two workouts and stay injury free and crisp, especially in high school when the body is undergoing massive changes.

To the OP, it is commendable that you set such high goals for yourself. You clearly are a talented runner, and I have no doubt that it's in the realm of possibilty for you to run under 9 minutes in the next two years. However, from a purely statistical standpoint it is much more likely that you will not do so. I say this not to discourage you, but instead to point you towards more immediate goals, as others in the thread have mentioned. Also, you alluded to some psychological difficulties that prevented you from competing to your best ability, and I think setting such a difficult goal could exacerbate these issues.

So what do I suggest? Just have fun and compete. Train harder, but realize Rome wasn't built in a day and that the most crucial aspect of running very fast times is consistent training. Simply put, don't get injured. It's the little things that will make the difference ie frequent ice baths, consistent drills to work on mechanics, and most importantly taking a workout off if, say, your achilles is unreasonably sore.

The sample training week posted earlier looked good save the workout at mile pace. I'd say that that workout should be replaced by 800s or 1000s at 5k-10k pace, depending on the time of year. The mile paced stuff should be saved for the end of the season, both as a way to fend off injury and because you want to focus on longer stuff anyway.

Good Thread so far!

I've read some of the suggestions and maybe We can make a week for this time in the year...so beginning of outdoor.

Sunday 12-14

Monday 4am PM: Workout for Goal Race (3200, so some 800's at goal race pace)

Tuesday 8-10

Wednesday 4AM PM:Tempo/fartlek in afternoon

Thursday 8-10

Friday 4AM PM Long Intervals: (ex 5kpace) or tempo/interval/tempo

Saturday 8-10

Keep bringing the suggestions!

Wt. Room 2 days a week, core 6 days.

Be sure to add some quick strides/quick 200's at the end of a few workouts just to keep the legs fresh.

lookingforward, the most qualified opinion on this thread, by far, is squid's. He's right, look ahead, but not THAT far ahead.

Aerobic development is a long-term process. That doesn't mean for you to make long-term plans at the expense of the short-term. In fact, the short-term successes will ultimately enhance your long-term development.

Less focus on tempo runs and more on 200-400-800-1200 repeats. Two to three times a week. Also,the citation that you got injured at 50mpw, when you normally run 40-45 implies that you somehow believe there's a causal effect. There is none. Your body cannot tell the difference.

My advice, bump you mileage up and bump it up now. You should be able to get in 3-4 solid weeks that will carry you through the rest of the season. Do 800-1200 repeats at up to goal pace for two miles, and 200-400 repeats faster than goal pace for 1 mile.

When you do bump it up, expect fatigue, but don't be afraid to back down is the fatigue is extreme.

Good luck.

Most of your improvemnet at your age will come from natural physical maturity changes, anyway. Your training will be the icing on the cake.

Thanks everyone! It's nice to hear that I have talent, and in makes me even more confident in my abilities.

Just a suggestion, could you put your accomplishments and current positions in your posts? It helps make your posts even stronger and more influential. They've all been really helpful and I've already read each one at least twice. Thanks.

I forgot to ask, what do you think I should try to run this spring?

Thanks again.

800: 1:54

Mile:4:13

3k: 8:32

5k:14:58

I'm a frosh in College right now.

where do they have HS 2 mile races these days

Couldn't disagree more. There have probably been tens of thousands of HS kids over the last 40 yrs that have run 4:30 for the mile with minimal or average training. There is a world of difference between a 4:30 mile and breaking 9:00 for the 2 mile - completely different stratosphere. Certainly, there are those who have dropped under 9:00 for the 2 with only average mileage - but they are very few and in an elite category. Not to minimize this young man's performance and maybe he will be one of those elite few, but it is completely misleading to suggest that the average HS runner can break 9:00 for the 2 with average mileage. I am originally from VA which has always been considered a HS DR hotbed. I can count on two hands the number of VAHS kids that have broken 9:00 for the 2 over the last 40 years and with one or two rare exceptions (AW being one), they were cranking out high mileage (80-100mpw) on a regular basis. And I know many, many more that were training at that level that never came close to breaking 9:00 for 2. As a previous poster points out, ultimately this young man will have to find out for himself just what amount of training it will take for him to reach an elite level (assuming that continues to be his goal), but breaking 9:00 for the 2 is no small feat, and for the majority is not achievable with casual training.

Many states do it still (including mine), and for the rest you can just convert.

Thanks for the input everyone, keep it coming. :D

As a side note, I definitely understand your sentiment about how few people do it. My opinion so far is that it's caused by the following things:

1) Kids that are running in the 4:30 mile region as sophomores are often already training at a high intensity and have been doing so for some time. Almost every kid that I know or have known that was doing this as a sophomore did. Obviously, because they have already used so much potential, they can't get much better.

2) Kids don't see the possibility of getting any better and therefore don't try for it. The majority of the kids I know that have gotten to this point just kinda chilled and soaked up the glory. They're already one of the better kids in the league and the state, so why bother to keep pushing. When you have that mindset it's reflected in your training and you don't improve nearly as much as you can.

3) Man-children. You know the people I'm talking about. The 15 year olds with full beards. The kids that are balding in high school (AW). As I said before, I'm definitely not abnormally mature, so the continuing growth and strengthening should help me along too.

Just to make it clear, I am planning on getting up to at least 60-70 mpw by sometime next year. I think some people only read my first post and thought I was planning on staying low.

Thanks!

That sounds like an intelligent approach. Hopefully all the comments have been beneficial. With regard to my comment about indoor track, I'm not suggesting that you altogether avoid indoor track (especially if it is to your liking), but I would use the winter primarily for base building and train through the indoor season, targeting some shorter races (800, 1000) to develop your speed. The logic behind this is that it becomes very difficult (mentally and physically) year over year to peak 3x a year and the physical stress associated with hard, anaerobic training to achieve this can often lead to injury and/or burnout. So, essentially you would target cc and outdoor for your peak performances and develop your training accordingly. Good luck with your training and racing.

1:56 is no a requirement for 9 flat, especially if you have less speed like you say

Well, I only ran 9:30 in HS (30 years ago), but I got down to 9:04 in college, with a mile best of 4:19.

I think that the general plans others have posted are pretty much on the mark. The elements you need are a long run, a tempo session, long intervals and true speed work to develop mechanical efficiency. It's not rocket science. I would say that a lot of HS programs over emphasize short intervals (800m and down), at the expense of really solid aerobic development and LT work.

I also second the comment that 9:00 is a great goal, but take it in steps. Most people won't get down to 9:00 without a long, steady progression. 9:45 will probably be challenging for you in the short run. It's a big jump to get to 9:20 from there. It's another big jump to get t 9:00. I worked my balls off for 4 years after running 9:30, and never did quite get there.

Mental calm and a 'matter of fact' attitude during a race are also important. You don't want to start a race thinking ' I hope it doesn't hurt'. You want to start the race thinking 'I know how to deal with this, though I know it's going to be hard'.

that's no hs soph.