David Rudisha 45.5 400m. Making the 400/800 man stylish again.

ventolin^2 wrote:

kip, i'd suggest wouda been more like mid-44s

his 1'41.2wr ( zurich ) off 48.5/52.7 -> even-pace of 1'40.2

in comparison, coe's 1'41.7wr off 49.5/52.2 ->1'41.3

we know coe musta been a 45+ guy around then & obviously had far better over-distance endurance than kip

therefore, for kip to produce an 800m which was intrinsically >1s better, means he musta been helluva lot faster than 45+

if he'd run a few 400s in that zurich form, he'd almost certainly have got into mid-44s

this makes rudy's goal so much harder : even if he breaks the wr with perfect wabbiting, he won't be intrinsically better than kip until he does actually run 1'40-flat !!!

You put too much faith in your performance potential charts. I'm assume you're also a big fan of metaphysical values as well, an alternate reality of absolute truth?

Anyways, Rudisha will be better than Kipketer if he runs faster than Kipketer. You ever think that Kipketer wouldn't have run that world record if he went out at an even pace? That even pacing would have resulted in something slower than 1:41?

kipketer had plenty of shots at sub 1:41. he ran what he could run. you can't just point to even pacing and say that would cut x amount off your time, because athletes are going to be tired halfway through their race and will not be able in most cases to maintain, unless they went out very slowly. There are different energy/aerobic systems involved in laps one and two in the 800m anyway.

Bottom line is that Rudisha at around 21 has a 1:43.2 in March, a 1:42.01 last year, and need drop less than a second from his pr to break the world record. I have a hard time believing he won't do it this year, if healthy.

David Rudisha is the Greatest 800m ever. His 1.41.01secs and 1.41.09 secs is superior to all other 800m runners in the world. At 22yrs old, he has a real good understanding, and knowledge about the 800m event. He is very sharp minded person. He has high tolerance, high speed endurance, strong stamina, strong will and mind, determine, committed to the 800m run, and very focus on the task while running. He does not stop running until he cross the line. I watch his youtube videos over and over and he is superb- runs a 400m 1st lap in 48.22, then runs a very strong 3rd 200m coming down the backstretch and at 600m in 1:14.54secs. Lastly, he ran a world record in the 800m in a time of 1:41.01secs. This is insane running ability.

MG.

Ulric Graham wrote:

David Rudisha is the Greatest 800m ever. His 1.41.01secs and 1.41.09 secs is superior to all other 800m runners in the world. At 22yrs old, he has a real good understanding, and knowledge about the 800m event. He is very sharp minded person. He has high tolerance, high speed endurance, strong stamina, strong will and mind, determine, committed to the 800m run, and very focus on the task while running. He does not stop running until he cross the line. I watch his youtube videos over and over and he is superb- runs a 400m 1st lap in 48.22, then runs a very strong 3rd 200m coming down the backstretch and at 600m in 1:14.54secs. Lastly, he ran a world record in the 800m in a time of 1:41.01secs. This is insane running ability.

MG.

Rudisha has never gone through 400m in 48.22!

He is a great 800m runner and will no doubt go down as ONE of the greatest of all time, but I think it's highly premature to suggest he's the greatest EVER after one great season. He hasn't won a title of any description yet.

He's only run 0.1 faster than Kipketer did 13 years ago, and Kip's 1:41.2 off a 48.4 first lap is intrinsically superior in my opinion. And Kip did win several World titles. Rudisha hasn't won any yet.

He's only run 0.7 faster than Coe did 30 years ago! Had he not run wide round the pace maker on the bend it would have been 1:41.5. Give Coe the modern shoes and tracks and the regularity of fast paced races (his own travelling rabbit perhaps!) I'm sure that 0.5 gap would disappear. Coe has 2 Olympic silvers, a World Cup gold, European golds indoors and out and 11 seasons + in the top 3.

Then you've got Snell's 1:44.3 on grass almost 50 years ago. And his 2 Olympic golds. Say no more.

Rudisha has some way to go to get above all these 3, starting with gold in Daegu, which I believe he will do.

coe mighta been 1'41.0 modern day, but rudy had no proper drafting in berlin

give him konchellah like intimate pacing of '81 & that 1'41.09 wouda been 1'40.6

kip's zurich wr was worth ~ 1'40.8 off 2s differential split

both superior to coe

Vent, do you still believe positive spliting is not the best way to run the 800?

i'm only offering some physics on the question

physics says 1'42.00 is run best at even pace = 51.00/51.00

a 1'42.00 run off varying +ve splits :

1s -> 50.50/51.50 -> even pace of 1'41.98

2s -> 50.00/52.00 -> even pace of 1'41.92

3s -> 49.50/52.50 -> even pace of 1'41.82

4s -> 49.00/53.00 -> even pace of 1'41.68

5s -> 48.50/53.50 -> even pace of 1'41.51

( kip ran 48.3 / 52.9 in zurich 1'41.2 or 4.6s : for rough estimate take mid-point of last 2 lines for that & compare to 2s line & that will indicate what to take off his 1'41.2 for 2s splits )

the lesson physics teaches us is that running it even-pace will only offer at best a 0.08s advantage over standard 2s differential

i don't have to tell you that this is a trivial advantage all swallowed up manyfold by quality of wabbit/how close wabbit followed/etc

physics conclusion :

run it how you feel most comfortable doing it, but probably not more than 2s off

The main thing you have to remember is that the second 400m of the 800m is with a flying start, whereas the first 400m requires accelerating from rest. Therefore a split of 51.0/51.0 is NOT evenly paced, in fact it implies that the runner is slowing down.

If you really wanted to run an "evenly paced" race you would run the second 400m slightly faster than the first. (I am unsure of the time benefit of a flying start, perhaps 0.5-1 seconds).

Therefore, you would need to run 51.5/50.5 in order to keep a constant speed after the first 100m.

ventolin^3 wrote:

coe mighta been 1'41.0 modern day, but rudy had no proper drafting in berlin

give him konchellah like intimate pacing of '81 & that 1'41.09 wouda been 1'40.6

kip's zurich wr was worth ~ 1'40.8 off 2s differential split

both superior to coe

Are you serious? If Coe could run 1:41.5 in June on a shitty track, then 1:41.0 is conservative estimate for a fast track like Rieti at the peak of season in late Aug.

How you can suggest Rudisha & Kipketer runs "superior" when there was less than 0.5 between them in real value but there was 30 years between them is ridiculous.

They may have been marginally faster, but in a historical context Coe's run was massive improvement on rest of world by more than 1.5 secs. Kipketer's was 0.6 improvement, Rudisha's only 0.1.

It's like saying Rupp is a superior 10k guy than Viren or Clarke or Rono, because he ran seconds faster 30+ years later.

In historical context though? It only gets more and more difficult to break records as time goes on. People aren't becoming so much faster as time passes over 30 or so years that records are often smashed by such a large margin like Coe did in his prime.

ventolin^3 wrote:

coe mighta been 1'41.0 modern day, but rudy had no proper drafting in berlin

give him konchellah like intimate pacing of '81 & that 1'41.09 wouda been 1'40.6

kip's zurich wr was worth ~ 1'40.8 off 2s differential split

both superior to coe

Ventolin, why are you fixating on Rudisha's times; you should be fixating on his championship record.

Rudisha has failed to make the final of the:

2009 World Outdoor Champs

2010 World Indoor Champs

2010 British Commonwealth Champs

Jeez Ventolin, focus on what's important.

err...

since his failure of '09, he has only entered 1 champs

the african champs where he destroyed the field with a solo 1'42.8 at few 1000'A

i'm afraid you are ignorant of historical observations

most pertinent being that the cache of coe's 1'41.7 died after 3y when cruz ran same to tenth withouth any controversy of clocking

cruz's race was also at butt-end of season & by when he musta been running on fumes - after watching his gold race, i thought he might have energy left for 1 last hand-waving nominal effort in zurich - not unthinkable series of <1'43s !!!

so he spent 13y as "0.04s" wr holder

it doesn't make him any superior to his contemporary let alone kip/rudy

as for he being 1.5s superior to anyone before, that is more due to he being fortunate of getting synthetic track & proper wabbits on euro circuit

guys like

- ryun/snell wouda been going 1'41/1'42 in '60s

- kiprugut in mexico looked to be in high-1'42 shape on analysis of running a near solo mid-1'44 with crazy start at 7,300'

- kipkurgat looked again in high-1'42 shape in his solo 1'43.9 on windy day in kiwi

- caballo looked to be in maybe 1'42.7 shape in his again, virtually solo 1'43.50 in gold race

there shouda been a smattering of 1'42s ( & possibly 1'41 ) by '79 if all guys had had similar opportunities

this wouda given a much more sobering reassesment of coe's initial 1'42.3wr - he definitely woudn't have been wr holder with that

of course his 1'41.7wr wouda been good chance of unquestionable quickest 800 run at the time, but i still rate that as odds against compared to the monster ryun was in '67

Med School Runner wrote:...Therefore, you would need to run 51.5/50.5 in order to keep a constant speed after the first 100m.

yes

that has been considered previously ( even splits are more like 51.37/50.63 as differential that "works" best according to analysis of long relays :

sum of 400 ability - 3.00

so, 4 guys of 45.0 ->2'57.0

( or 0.75s advantage gained by flying starts ) )

that's 1 reason why i quoted the juxtaposition of a 50.50/51.50 line in the series

from physics point of view, it is a trivial difference...

ventolin^3 wrote:

i'm afraid you are ignorant of historical observations

most pertinent being that the cache of coe's 1'41.7 died after 3y when cruz ran same to tenth withouth any controversy of clocking

cruz's race was also at butt-end of season & by when he musta been running on fumes - after watching his gold race, i thought he might have energy left for 1 last hand-waving nominal effort in zurich - not unthinkable series of

reviving these observations.

vivalarepublica wrote:

This might have got lost in the results of everybody's favorite cracker Gregson running a 3:35 1500m last night, but David Rudisha, an 1:42.01 800m man, ran a 45.5 400m, beating Olympic bronze medalist David Neville in the process. Very impressive, especially since he only was doing a tune-up for 800 meter races. He's bringing the 400/800 focus back in style.

Finals

1 Ben Offereins WAIS 44.86MA

2 Sean Wroe VIS 45.40 A

3 David Rudisha KEN 45.50 A

4 David Neville USA 45.90 B

5 Kevin Moore NSW 46.13

6 Joel Milburn NSWIS 46.30

7 Clay Watkins SASI 46.30

8 Nicholas Boylett QLD 46.66

Hey, Viva, haven't you some murderous lefty (Che Guevara, e.g.) to promote?

vivalarepublica wrote:

This might have got lost in the results of everybody's favorite cracker Gregson running a 3:35 1500m last night, but David Rudisha, an 1:42.01 800m man, ran a 45.5 400m, beating Olympic bronze medalist David Neville in the process. Very impressive, especially since he only was doing a tune-up for 800 meter races. He's bringing the 400/800 focus back in style.

Always been a racist haven't you?

vivalapervotica wrote:

vivalarepublica wrote:

This might have got lost in the results of everybody's favorite cracker Gregson running a 3:35 1500m last night, but David Rudisha, an 1:42.01 800m man, ran a 45.5 400m, beating Olympic bronze medalist David Neville in the process. Very impressive, especially since he only was doing a tune-up for 800 meter races. He's bringing the 400/800 focus back in style.

Always been a racist haven't you?

Yes he has. Trying to do a better job of hiding it nowadays. Obvious what his stance is in any case.

Go away, Coevett.