keyboard Master. wrote:
No, there's Lagat, Meb, Barrios. Oh, by US distance runner you meant white boy?
Barrios is Mexican, you dummy.
keyboard Master. wrote:
No, there's Lagat, Meb, Barrios. Oh, by US distance runner you meant white boy?
Barrios is Mexican, you dummy.
Lavid Detterman wrote:
I heard about this guy ... what was his name Frank ... Shorter, I heard that he did a few things.
http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/athletes/sh/frank-shorter-1.htmlFrank Shorter is the only U.S. athlete to have won two Olympic medals in the marathon. He started as a long distance track runner, winning the NCAA six miles for Yale in 1969. Shorter went on to win five AAU titles at six miles/10,000m; he also won the AAU outdoor three miles in 1970 and the indoor title in 1971. He won the 1971 Pan-American Games 10,000m event and, at the 1972 Olympics, he set a U.S. record in the 10,000m heats, which he further improved by taking fifth place in the final. Despite these track successes, Frank Shorter will be best remembered as a marathon runner. He made his marathon début when he placed second to Kenny Moore in the 1971 AAU Championships. In his second race he won the Pan-Am Games title, and he rounded off his first season as a road runner with the first of his record number of four victories in the Fukuoka Marathon. In winning this Japanese classic for the second time in 1972, Shorter set his career best of 2-10:30
Agreed- Shorter was a stud. And he was obviously one of the top marathoners ever. But what did he do in cross country? I think a strong case can be made that both Ritz and Meb are more accomplished on the track and on the grass. I think for most versatile, you need to consider track, road, and cross country.
Racing should count a lot. If we go by PR's than Webb is best ever. But looking at 1/2 marathon PR's and saying Ritz is better at this distance is just not right. Do yuo seriously think that Meb back when he was a 27:13 guy could not win a bronze medal at the world half? If it was ahead-to-head race I'll pick Meb even in the 5000. Same goes for every other distance. Meb is a racer and Ritz is a euro time trialer.
You'll pick Meb as a RACER in a 5K? Based on WHAT EXACTLY?
Ritz was bred as a XC stud with incredible surging skills. Meb can hold his own at any distance over 5K, but what 5K race can you cite where has Meb blown away the field in a tactical race over the last 400/600? You'd have to go back pretty far in his archives.
gonchar wrote:
You'll pick Meb as a RACER in a 5K? Based on WHAT EXACTLY?
Ritz was bred as a XC stud with incredible surging skills. Meb can hold his own at any distance over 5K, but what 5K race can you cite where has Meb blown away the field in a tactical race over the last 400/600? You'd have to go back pretty far in his archives.
Based on Meb being a racer. Same reason i picked Lomong over Webb at the Olympic trials.
Serius question wrote:
Racing should count a lot. If we go by PR's than Webb is best ever. But looking at 1/2 marathon PR's and saying Ritz is better at this distance is just not right. Do yuo seriously think that Meb back when he was a 27:13 guy could not win a bronze medal at the world half? If it was ahead-to-head race I'll pick Meb even in the 5000. Same goes for every other distance. Meb is a racer and Ritz is a euro time trialer.
Fair enough point. But you're making Ritz out to sound like he's some sort of choke artist, which is patently false. Again, let's be objective here: 3rd at half worlds, 6th at the 10k WCs, 9th in the olympics, and having run well against some big dogs in Euro cross. I think you're right in differentiating between wins, though. Meb certainly has a history of getting big wins, although if we're being totally honest then most of those big wins were in American championships, not international competition (with the obvious big exceptions being the '04 olympics and NYC this year... but again, there's no question Meb is far and away the better marathoner to date). And I certainly don't think that Meb in 27:13 shape was guaranteed a half marathon top 3 finish. That's like saying just because Hall is in 2:08 shape means he's guaranteed a top 3 at Boston. But I digress.
I seem to recall Shorter winning a number of national cross titles. Can anyone verify this?
Steve Prefontaine set 15 American distance records, and as of May 9, 1975, he held the American record at every distance from 2000m through 10,000m: 2000m, 3000m, Two Mile, Three Mile, 5000m, Six Mile, and 10,000m.
Who's going to top that, smart guys?
I also remember an indoor 2 mile (believe it or not) where he smoked Rod Dixon and won in about 8:20. Probably about '77 or '78.
Shorter is "the most versatile" if you decide that by the amount of "honors won".
MARA - 2 Oly medals. 2 OT wins. 4-time Fukuoka winner - the de facto World Championship of the era. He won the OTs against 2 Oly 4th-placers (Moore and Kardong) and Bill Ro (perhaps the best marathoner of that era).
TRACK - NCAA champ in 10k. '72 AAU he runs #2 US all-time against the 28:08 AR of Fredericks. Then runs TWO ARs of 27:58 and 27:51.4. 5th in the '72 OG 5k. Later he ran 27:45. Five national championships at 10k. 2 OT titles at 10k. He also had several 2nds and 3rds at 10k and 5k nationals. US ranked for 10 years at 10k (minus 1978) and NINE years at 5k.
XC -
Shorter won the U.S. national cross-country championships four times (1970, 1971, 1972, 1973). I know he went to the WCCC in 1976, he was not top-10, something like 27th. He may have gone other years.
So I would say he beats Ritz HANDS-DOWN in the marathon and on the track. Mostly due to his consistency on the track and an Olympic 5th place. In XC it is close, but I would say at the WCCC level (not juniors) they are even (or edge to Ritz) and at the National level Shorter has a better record. (I realize it may be a whole different ballgame at Nationals from 2000-2010 than it was in 1970)
Look at the archives of TaFNews for the 10k and 5k and you will be amazed at people like Bob Kennedy, Shorter, Virgin, Dick Buerkle, Marty Liquori, Centrowitz ... these guys won (or were right up there) year after year after year. And to give a nod to the current crop the 10k has been a Meb-Culpepper-Abdi affair (in some order) from 2000-2009.
Ritz is a great runner and he may soon be the fastest American at 5k/10k/mara but he still has a ways to go to match Shorter or even Virgin or even Salazar if you are judging Americans on VERSATILITY. They all have MULTIPLE ARs on the track (5-10 each indoors/out) and road . They all made multiple Oly teams. Shorter has OG medals, Virgin has WCCC Golds, Salazar has so many big race wins and held the ARs at 5k/10k/mara. They all won multiple XC National Championships.
bigtimer wrote:
Steve Prefontaine set 15 American distance records, and as of May 9, 1975, he held the American record at every distance from 2000m through 10,000m: 2000m, 3000m, Two Mile, Three Mile, 5000m, Six Mile, and 10,000m.
Who's going to top that, smart guys?
That's great. No denying Stevie boy was the most versatile distance runner of his era on the TRACK. But we're talking about versatility over three surfaces, smart guy.
diceman cometh wrote:
Fair enough point. But you're making Ritz out to sound like he's some sort of choke artist, which is patently false. Again, let's be objective here: 3rd at half worlds, 6th at the 10k WCs, 9th in the olympics, and having run well against some big dogs in Euro cross. I think you're right in differentiating between wins, though. Meb certainly has a history of getting big wins, although if we're being totally honest then most of those big wins were in American championships, not international competition (with the obvious big exceptions being the '04 olympics and NYC this year... but again, there's no question Meb is far and away the better marathoner to date). And I certainly don't think that Meb in 27:13 shape was guaranteed a half marathon top 3 finish. That's like saying just because Hall is in 2:08 shape means he's guaranteed a top 3 at Boston. But I digress.
I seem to recall Shorter winning a number of national cross titles. Can anyone verify this?
Nah, hes damn good, very good. But Meb is crazy good. He reminds me of Jordan, or Zatopec. He loves the opportunity to race. So does Ritz. That's why I dont think he puts that much weight on that 5000.
Ritz is by far my favorite runner but he is not the most verstile. In my opinion I think Webb is the most versatile
Webb:
800m-1:43.84
100m-2:20.32
1500m-3:30.54
Mile-3:46.91
3000m-7:39.28 (enroute)
2 Mile-8:11.48
5000m-13:10.86
10000m-27:34.72 Guess who he beat???
Ritz:
1500m-3:42.99
3000m-7:39.03
2 Mile-8:11.74
5000m-12:56.27
10,000m-27:22.28
10k-28:08
15k-43:29
20k-56:48
Half Marathon-1:00:00
Marathon-2:10:00