Is it worth it to do 45 min tempos when the longest I'll be racing this track season is 12 minutes?

you must be an intellectual. stop thinking and just run the workout.

I'd focus more on a long run, a short interval speed workout, and a tempo run starting a 8 minutes or so, and progressing a minute each week. This "tempo" run would be close to goal race pace, so some might call it something else. You could follow it up with some short race pace intervals.

A 45 minute tempo could be a fourth workout, if you typically do 4 workouts a week...

crazykyle26 wrote:

What you have to realize is that a 20 minute tempo and a 45 minute tempo are two different workouts with different stress almost entirely. The shorter 20 minute tempo is likely to be run at lactate threshold and sustained right there for the full time. You cannot do that for 45 minutes and if you are you're doing them wrong. Those very long tempo runs are more sub-threshold, and are trying to teach you to be more efficient at faster paces, not so much at the lactate threshold.

You can run at the real lactate threshold up to 90-100minutes when trained properly, so there´s no problem to stay 45min at LT.

name wrote:

crazykyle26 wrote:

What you have to realize is that a 20 minute tempo and a 45 minute tempo are two different workouts with different stress almost entirely. The shorter 20 minute tempo is likely to be run at lactate threshold and sustained right there for the full time. You cannot do that for 45 minutes and if you are you're doing them wrong. Those very long tempo runs are more sub-threshold, and are trying to teach you to be more efficient at faster paces, not so much at the lactate threshold.

You can run at the real lactate threshold up to 90-100minutes when trained properly, so there´s no problem to stay 45min at LT.

No sir. LT, aka AnT, can be maintained for a maximum of 50-60 minutes. A 45 min LT or AnT run would be extremely difficult. Now, the aerobic threshold, or AeT, can be maintained (in theory) indefinitely. That is the pace you'd be running for a 45-minute "tempo" run.

I'd say a tempo over 6 miles is excessive for training for a 2 mile race. So if you're talking about doing a 3 or 4 mile tempo one week and then 6 mile the next, I think you're trainging correctly. I'd only do 7 to 8 mile tempos if you're training for something longer than a 5k.

question..... wrote:

I have a question about tempos... is it worth it to do 40-45 min tempos if the longest race I'll be running during the track season will be around 12 minutes or less? By the way, these 40-45 min tempos are over varied terrain including some hills whereas the 12 min tempo is on the track.

This tempo would also be once every 2 weeks... alternated with a 20-30 min tempo that's mostly flat.

So is it a good idea to do these long tempos every week/every other week to prepare for a race that is significantly shorter? And if I continue to do strides every few days during the base session?

Yes, avoiding anaerobic workouts and races for a few months can be a great benefit in the long run to peak higher when it counts. However, you definetly should do striders a couple of days a week to remind your mind and body what it feels like to run fast. Keep the striders 150 meters or less to avoid going anaerobic. Also, 45 minute tempos are basically marathon pace runs which give you a lot of strength, so you should do them at your approximate marathon pace (they should be comfortably hard). These are great and I recently ran a 5k pr of off just doing high mileage with the majority of workouts being marathon pace runs and long runs. So doing 45 minute tempos should help you to maintain a faster pace for 12 minutes. However, I can go even faster for the 5k now by adding some hard intervals workouts. Both aerobic running and anaerobic intervals are needed to run your fastest but should be implemented at strategic times to be more beneficial. So you should should take a few months and focus on mostly tempo workouts and then take a few months and focus on mostly anaerobic intervals. Heres how I would approach it for the upcoming track season.

December - Mid March

Two Tempo workouts a week (mix up your tempos to keep it interesting for your mind and body)

examples:

*20-30 minute tempo @ 15k pace

*40-60 minute tempo @ marathon pace

*7 x 800 @ 12k pace with a minute rest

*2 x 3 miles @ half marathon pace with a 5 minute rest

Run a weekly long run (14-20 miles) but approach it like a workout so go easy the day before and after.

examples:

*14-20 miles @ half marathon pace plus a minute per mile (So if you could run 6:30 pace for a half marathon then you do the long run at 7:30 pace)

*14-20 miles with the last 20-30 minutes @ marathon pace.

*14-20 miles with 10 x 1:00 surges in the latter half

You may run an occasional race (preferably 5 or less) and just replace a tempo with the race in your training week. Also, remember the higher the mileage the better.

Mid March - Late April

Two Anerobic workouts a week

examples:

10 x 400m @ mile pace w/ same time rest

6 x 800m @ 3k pace w/ same time rest

12 x 200m @ 800m pace w/ same time rest

Keep your 14-20 mile long run but just run it easy

Race Often!!!

Keep your mileage up!!!

Try to run a tempo run at least every few weeks. So if you have a week with no races do a tempo in replace of that race.

May

Cut your mileage in half

One easy early week workout

examples:

*6 x 400m @ 3k pace with full recovery

*5 x 300m @ 3k pace with full recovery

Go after it in your championship races!!!

Sorry, but I'm still curious as to what race you're running that will take 12 minutes. I need to know.

I would argue that race distance is pretty irrelevant. If a 40 min workout does a better job of improving aerobic ability versus a a 20 min one, you should do the 40 min. Volume might be more important than intensity for this give workout.

what are you running on the track thats 12 min

the real question wrote:

what are you running on the track thats 12 min

I am curious about this as well. Did the 4K become a track event?

2 mile

how much mileage are you running to make you think that you have to run a 45min tempo run

60, 70 mpw

60-70 mpw and you're only running a twelve minute 2 mile?! ... you need to stop and re think what your doing.

Truly either running is not your sport or you are practically walking your steady states.

That said, your commitment is incredible.

12 min 2 mile is pretty decent for a girl (if the OP is a girl which I would assume...?)

That will make it to the state meet in some smaller divisions.

Beside that, the OP said that is the LONGEST she will be racing. That could mean 12 minutes at the start of the season down to 11 minutes or better at the end of the season.

777 wrote:

No sir. LT, aka AnT, can be maintained for a maximum of 50-60 minutes. A 45 min LT or AnT run would be extremely difficult. Now, the aerobic threshold, or AeT, can be maintained (in theory) indefinitely. That is the pace you'd be running for a 45-minute "tempo" run.

No sir, you are wrong. That BELIEVE you have about LT is a common mistake. LT can be maintained about 90-100minutes;

Question to Marius Bakken and Bakken answers:

Question re; threshold

by: Matt

Hi Marius,

Thanks for the great site and insights.

In relation to the above...I get a bit confused on occasion re; the best pace to use for the specific 'threshold' sets.

I see some comments that say 'half marathon is right at threshold', and the other comments pertinent to threshold saying something like 'just under marathon pace'.

For the recommeded '1-hr' of pace work as suggested to the marathon runner, I am guessing closer to marathon pace/circa 80% Vo2 max might be more suitable.

Is it a case also of the shorter the run and/or if broken into, say, 1K intervals, then the closer you can run to the threshold?

In the past I had read your suggestion of training at circa 0.5Mmol under threshold...but again, I am confused if the threshold referred to is 1-hr pace/half mara pace or mara pace (approximately). What is the best 'pace' to train at for LT training in sets of 30-40 minutes?

Certainly for me, there is some difference in stress between, say, a threshold run at marathon pace (cira 3:49/km) and one done at 3:40/km or so. I guess my 1-hr flat course race/time trial pace would be circa 3:36/km (HR about 171, Max 191, rest HR 34) or thereabouts, if that helps.

Also, does a low rest HR influence the HR on easy sessions at all? I have no difficulty running at <120 H (easy! :-) if required, where some of my training pals are much higher comparatively at the slow speeds.

I appreciate any insights, and sorry if this post is too technical or too many questions. :-)

Thanks and kind regards,

Matt

Sydney, Australia

Answer by Marius :

Hi Matt,

Thanks, those are some excellent questions !

Let me explain ; my personal experience is that the most accurate way of running "threshold training" is staying at a lactate level of around 3.0 mmol/l during the sessions (vs. about 4.0 that some literature say - but that 4.0 figure is largely based on athletes that does not have long enough endurance background. The longer you train your endurance, the lower this figure will be !) You can vary from around 2.2 to 3.3, which seems ideal.

In terms of heart rate this is approximately 80-87 %, though expect a variation from morning to afternoon of about 5 beats lower in the morning.

In terms of pace, my personal experience is that this is between your marathon pace and your half marathon pace, depending on where you are in your training cycle. In my case, the threshold before my 13.06 5k (measured 5 days before) was 2.53-54 pr km at 3.0 mmol/l, at 87-89 % of maximum heart rate (you can push this threshold heart rate higher when you are in peak shape) and I could easily stay there for the intervals. This pace would be between my marathon and half marathon pace (Circa CP 95’ for Marius).

This pace is slightly affected by the length of the intervals like you suggest. I use 6 min intervals as a reference. For 3 min intervals, you can push this 1-2 sec down/km, for 10 min you have to add 1-2 sec/km while for continuous marginally up again.

Kind regards,

Marius

P.S. The key words considering the real LT were:

This pace would be between my marathon and half marathon pace (Circa CP 95’ for Marius)

About AeT, you are also incorrect, for example I do my basic endurance runs at AeT and these will take 90mins in three consecutive days, 4 times a week so clearly this is not "tempo" work.

This is the intensity that Joe Vigil suggests for basic endurance training.

I'll Bite!

regardless of your gender, any conceivable race on the track taking twelve minutes just isnt very good. That being said, your level of fitness is not conducive to be attempting 45 minute tempos and you would be better of running a shorter duration at a faster pace. My advice, which is what you asked for, is to probably drop your mileage, you always want to be doing quality work, and if your just putting in a lot of slow miles and moderately fast long tempos your not going to see a great deal of improvement. Pick a nice quick target pace for tempos then start doing shorter tempos like 10 minutes and progressively make them longer. Its going to be more beneficial to do a 20minute tempo run at six minute pace then a 45min. tempo at seven minute pace.

name wrote:

In my case, the threshold before my 13.06 5k (measured 5 days before) was 2.53-54 pr km at 3.0 mmol/l, at 87-89 % of maximum heart rate (you can push this threshold heart rate higher when you are in peak shape) and I could easily stay there for the intervals. This pace would be between my marathon and half marathon pace (Circa CP 95’ for Marius).

Marius

If 2.53-54 by kilo would be his pace between his marathon and half marathon distance this would be WR for the 30k and 20miles as well and would take Marius to the marathon WR as well. No way. 2:53-2:54 it looks like his 10k to 15k pace.