The death of aerobic training?

Keying in on "principal of specificity", there is specific training and general training. The main purpose of general training is to support more specific training.

The value of 45 minutes of aerobic jogging, unless that is your "sport", should be measured by answering, how does it support specific training? Surely the answer is different for a sprinter, hockey player, boxer, basketball player, and distance runner, as their training needs are different.

Agreed entirely

Of course you need to be specific at some points in your training, I dont think anybody would disagree with that.

However, there is a tension between specificity and overload, both of which are needed to improve. So running 800m as fast as you can is very specific for 800m performance. However, it wouldnt provide as much of a stimulus for aerobic adaptation as perhaps 6x800m. Likewise it wouldnt provide as much as a stimulus for improvement in strength endurance as some repetitions on a hill. So, we need to provoke overload through non-specific activities and then 'glue' it all together through specific work. Everything is therefore important

Steady-state activity (cardio) sucks for any purpose other than training for endurance sports.

My problem with this whole argument, and the specificity points that have been raised in the thread is the idea that your training has to be either one or the other.

If an athlete is training twice a day, or even just once every day, they are not going to be able to do all of it at intensity - you need time to recover in between.

Easy runs provide aerobic stimulus whilst allowing the body to recover sufficiantly for the next intense workout. Both have their place in a regime.

marathondude wrote:

luv2run - Do you agree with his assertion that basketball players/hockey players should not do any base work? Do you agree that doing so will hurt their explosiveness?

Your answer lies within your question...

What changes taken place within the body as a response to prolonged aerobic activity? List in order the attributes needed to become an elite level basketball or hockey player. Strength, power, quickness, agility...are all compromised by prolonged aerobic activity. In both basketball and hockey you are performing maximal exertion intermittently with light to no exertion....intervals.

I don't know how long the average basketball player is kept out on the floor before a sub is sent in. I don't know how long the average hockey player is kept on the ice before a sub is sent it...but I'm sure both stats can be found. So, let's say the answer is 15 minutes and this is combination of max effort, light effort and near no effort. So a very basic general conditioning workout may look similar to what I posted above: Airdyne intervals, 30s all-out/90s easy repeat 6 times. That's very early, very general. A more specific but still general conditioning workout may include sprints/backpedal/side to side drills, etc. Or the old school favorite...suicides. The key is intermittent near max effort activity and this can be performed on the court, on the track, on the bike, or in the weight room.

Here's a challenge:

1. Take two 20lb dumbbells...pretty light even for runner standards.

2. Perform a fast but controlled DB Thruster (AKA: Squat Press) for 20 seconds as hard and fast as you can while maintaining control of the weight.

3. Rest 10 seconds.

4. Repeat for 4 minutes....total of 8 rounds of 20s effort/10s rest.

Welcome to a different kind of endurance.

Alan

Again, one needs to analyze the demands of their sport and/or event and train accordingly. One very successful basketball coach here in CT makes each of his kids run cross country in the fall. He does however, incorporate plyometric training into his xc program. As a result, his kids don't lose vertical leap ability and they run other teams off the court. According to boyle, these kids have been "ruined".

I'd think with a sport like basketball, some aerobic conditioning wouldn't hurt...not saying it's absolutely necessary, but there is some endurance necessary there as well.

Shameless Lawson Fan wrote:

My problem with this whole argument, and the specificity points that have been raised in the thread is the idea that your training has to be either one or the other.

If an athlete is training twice a day, or even just once every day, they are not going to be able to do all of it at intensity - you need time to recover in between.

Easy runs provide aerobic stimulus whilst allowing the body to recover sufficiantly for the next intense workout. Both have their place in a regime.

There is no such thing as an 'easy' run for a non-endurance athlete.

And there lies the issue....there is more than one way to improve cardiovascular fitness. If I take an untrained individual they'll improve there cardiovascular fitness without even doing any cardio. Perform a 45-60 minute weight training routine 3 days a week and even that will improve cardiovascular fitness. What is weight training? Approx. intervals of 1 minute on with 1 minute off.

I think the problem we're having is that people are isolating "aerobic" and "anaerobic" when there is no such isolation within the body. You can do exercises and routines very 'anaerobic' in nature and vastly improve aerobic conditioning...at least up to a point. A basketball player or hocky player doesn't need elite level aerobic conditioning. A basketball player needs enough aerobic conditioning to perform about 30-40 minutes of work in 2 hours or more...much less if you're coming off the bench. That feeling of getting out of breath while playing basketball...doesn't have a lot to do with a lack of aerobic conditioning, it's more a lack of anaerobic conditioning. Example: I used to run upwards of 100 miles a week. Well I started playing in a racquetball league here at the gym and my great aerobic condition didn't help much. After playing one game lasting about 30-45 minutes I was exhausted, sweating, and sore beyond belief. Why? Lack of anaerobic conditioning.

Alan

Usain Bolt does 1000m reps in under 3 minutes.

This begs two questions:

1,What type of training is that?

I would call it speed endurance rather than aerobic, but it contradicts Mike Boyle's dogma.

2,Should Bolt be coached by Mike Boyle to help him improve his speed?

Would Mike Boyle even acknowledge the fact that his ideas could be influenced by modern sprint training methods?

I cant believe this, but I am actually AGREEING with Wellnow.

Alan,

How is it that "Strength, power, quickness, agility...are all compromised by prolonged aerobic activity." ?

All muscle contractions are metabolic in nature. Why would it be that aerobic metabolism is harmful to strength and quickness?

Wellnow, with respect, how do you know Usain Bolt does 1000m reps?

Dangitall wrote:

I cant believe this, but I am actually AGREEING with Wellnow.

Alan,

How is it that "Strength, power, quickness, agility...are all compromised by prolonged aerobic activity." ?

All muscle contractions are metabolic in nature. Why would it be that aerobic metabolism is harmful to strength and quickness?

It may be over simplifying but....

Skeletal Muscle falls into two main categories. fast Twitch (FT) and slow Twitch (ST)

Fast twitch itself can be subdivided into Fast glycolytic A and Fast Glycolytic B also known as II A and II B. There is evidence out there to suggest that ST % can not be changed through training, but that some of the FT (Type IIA) may take on slow titch characterisitcs if not properly stimulated. Thus, Long Slow distance makes long slow runners.

Alan,

I have had the opposite experience on the racquetball court. I joined a league at the intermediate level. I was in decent running shape and no one else in the league was runners. I always found that I got my butt kicked pretty good in the first game. If I could win the second game I knew the third game was mine. I would just make my opponent run as much as possible. There was no way they could last for more than 1 good game against me. I ended finishing second in the league and that was based solely on my endurance, not on racquetball ability.

Of course, we are all amauteurs but that is pretty much how I approach any pick up game or what have you. I just simply try to run my opponents into the ground. It usuallly works.

weIInow wrote:

Usain Bolt does 1000m reps in under 3 minutes.

This begs two questions:

1,What type of training is that?

I would call it speed endurance rather than aerobic, but it contradicts Mike Boyle's dogma.

2,Should Bolt be coached by Mike Boyle to help him improve his speed?

Would Mike Boyle even acknowledge the fact that his ideas could be influenced by modern sprint training methods?

Logical fallacies abound. A training philosophy either stands or falls based on the merit of its argument. It should be evaluated by the independent judgment of facts and logic, not by the mindless assumption that whatever Usain Bolt does is correct. What you see in Usain Bolt's performances is genetic supremacy, not superior training.

Yes, this is news to me.HOw do you know this wellnow?

Danny Komen wrote:

Wellnow, with respect, how do you know Usain Bolt does 1000m reps?

A is A wrote:

Logical fallacies abound. A training philosophy either stands or falls based on the merit of its argument. It should be evaluated by the independent judgment of facts and logic, not by the mindless assumption that whatever Usain Bolt does is correct. What you see in Usain Bolt's performances is genetic supremacy, not superior training.

Logical fallacies (and arrogance) exist all over letsrun. Bolt DID do the 1000m run...and so did Dwain Chambers (he claimed 3:10 as I recall). The commentary from Chambers is on the web, and people who know enough about sprinting to comment would be expected to already know the story.

Steve Francis as well as Glen Mills use the technique. It's NOT about sprint training--it's about willingness to push oneself, which is ALSO part of sprinting; It's just not the physiological side.

Given the sheer number of Jamaicans performing well (not just Bolt, but Powell, Sherri-Ann Fraser, Kerron Stewart, VCB, and others, you would have to be an absolute moron not to realize that they have something in the systems they are using. People like John Smith are not absolute morons thus have taken parts of what the Jamaicans are doing and are using them.

Is aerobic distance running part of that system? Absolutely not. Steve Francis has even gone on record pointing out that he does not have anyone run for more than 20 minutes, as he has read that doing so affects the ability to sprint.

I don't often speak about others and their qualifications, but having worked with Mike Boyle and watching him in action for almost 20 years, I feel somewhat qualified to speak on the topic of Mike's little sample lecture.

Mike Boyle's background is weight lifting, it is NOT running. He has worked with football players at Boston U when they had football and then worked with Ice Hockey. He never ever worked with one track athlete during the time I was the coach at Boston U (22 years as the head track coach). In fact, when I went to him and wanted to converse about weight training philosophy the only thing ever provided to me by him was three years of back issues of weight lifting magazines. When I went back to him to discuss some of the many articles I read, he had no time to speak with me. In all my years at Boston U, he and I never got together and talked about weight training philosophy. Mind you, he was Head of Strength and Conditioning at Boston U for many of those years, before moving out to Colorado for a few years and then coming back and starting his own weight training business in the Boston area.

This is not sour apples on my part, I hope those of you reading this understand. I just could not get him to discuss anything about how track athletes should train.

I also watched him many times as he trained football guys in getting them prepared for the annual combine each year. His training methods for getting the guys ready for the 40 yard sprint were very contrary to any approach a track and field coach would use in prepping a runner for a big meet. His main resources were sled pulls, stadium stairs and high knee runs with the feet hitting heel first. These workouts were done right up to the week of the Combine, mind you, not right after football season was completed. His workouts always reminded me of and high school coach that used to do hill repeats the day before our county meet to get his runners ready for the meet the next day....

Mike is well respected in the hockey world and as a general fitness consultant and that is just fine with me. However, I am amazed that those of you in the sport of track and field would give him any credibility when it comes to proper training routines, particularly when he tries to provide new ideas for doing running workouts. If anything, from the small sample of his lecture, you would think he read some stuff from Igloi and just repackaged it in modern terms.

Pete Schuder wrote:

I also watched him many times as he trained football guys in getting them prepared for the annual combine each year. His training methods for getting the guys ready for the 40 yard sprint were very contrary to any approach a track and field coach would use in prepping a runner for a big meet. His main resources were sled pulls, stadium stairs and high knee runs with the feet hitting heel first. These workouts were done right up to the week of the Combine, mind you, not right after football season was completed. His workouts always reminded me of and high school coach that used to do hill repeats the day before our county meet to get his runners ready for the meet the next day....

I'll point out here that in Jamaica Steve Francis has Asafa Powell pulling sleds with up to 50 pounds (no, that's not a misprint and he has women pulling half that amount) for six months of the year, and the athletes also do both long and short (it's been described as a 40 degree angle) hill sprints. They are also doing overdistance training (repeats like 8X200, 6X300, 4X450 at 80% speed)--and Usain Bolt in a different club also does this kind of thing, just varying in degree.

When people here produce someone with a 6.32 sec 60 meter split, go right ahead and criticize....