middle distance wrote:
He's always calling someone a moron if they don't agree with him. If you haven't come across his arrogant and narrow minded postings yet, then you've been very lucky. He's a bit of a laughing stock on here and is best ignored.
You´re both an idiot and a moron.
Rubbish. Not my posting style.
Moron.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't most of the Chinese records that were set in the early 90s done at the Chinese National Champs (some crazy stuff like the 5k world record set in the 10k or something too)?
Then wasn't the track immediately demolished?
One of 3 things were going on (or some combination all).
1) the athletes were doped (likely because they continued to perform well at the Olympics in '96, I believe, though nothing quite like at the National Games where they broke the records)
2) They miscounted laps (this seems plausible in the 10k)
3) The track was short (this also seems just as plausible and makes sense with regards to demo'ing the stadium and why there were fast times from 1500-10k).
I think all 3 are probably true.
Captain Spalding wrote:
Here's the article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/28/sports/global/28doping.htmlMyself, I'm inclined to believe that there was probably doping in Ma's Army. But I also find something compelling in the idea that the success came at least in part from the training methods/psychological abuse.
Finally here is the proof that Frank Shorter's medals were dirty, that crooked cheat. Some people will scoff at the few years of difference but that makes no difference. He knows where China is, his dad was a doctor, and besides that Frank went to medical school. Thanks for posting this link which puts the nail in that coffin.
Mayor wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't most of the Chinese records that were set in the early 90s done at the Chinese National Champs (some crazy stuff like the 5k world record set in the 10k or something too)?
Then wasn't the track immediately demolished?
One of 3 things were going on (or some combination all).
1) the athletes were doped (likely because they continued to perform well at the Olympics in '96, I believe, though nothing quite like at the National Games where they broke the records)
2) They miscounted laps (this seems plausible in the 10k)
3) The track was short (this also seems just as plausible and makes sense with regards to demo'ing the stadium and why there were fast times from 1500-10k).
I think all 3 are probably true.
They were run at the National Games.
2) How did they miscount laps when Qu ran 3:50 in the 1500m?
3) Then why didn't the men record any phenomenal marks?
Until the 1500, 3000 and 10km records are broken, we will all have our own opinions of the Chinese women's records from 1993.
My own opinion is that, yes, the women were clean and just training their nuts off. and YES I have been to China numerous times.
Jason
They obviously did not miscount laps in the 1500 (but may have in the 10k)... but the track could have been short or they could have started it at the wrong spot.
I don't think they would have miscounted laps on anything other then the 10k. That, combined with a track that was a few meters per lap short, combined with or possibly replace that with wrong start and finish lines, would lead to crazy times all over the place.
The Chinese women were likely also drugged, abused, and INCREDIBLY fit.
But it wasn't the turtle blood that made them run that fast.
on the runs wrote:
2) How did they miscount laps when Qu ran 3:50 in the 1500m?
If they wanted to cheat, I'm sure they could find a way to miscount laps.
on the runs wrote:
3) Then why didn't the men record any phenomenal marks?
I believe this observation is even more of an indication that something systematic was/(is?) going on. Can you think of another country that has such a gender discrepancy in performance at middle and long distances? Can you name another Russian male besides Borzakovskiy that even sniffs the finals at major athletic meets? I don't think it was a surprise that so many Russian women were caught doping and the similarities between the Russian and Chinese systems implicates the Chinese women as well.
Perhaps the men don't take so kindly to the abusive treatment at the camps? Or maybe the performance boost in men is not as dramatic as it is in women?
ventolin (real) (real) wrote:
Rubbish. Not my posting style.
Moron.
Troll. Not my style of post.
Then where are the fantastic men's times from the 1993 National Games?
An even paced 4:00 1500m is at the 1437.5m mark at 3:50 into the race. That would mean your short track would have been 383m round. So a man of 28:30 10000m ability would have run under 27:20 on such a track. A 3:45 1500m runner would have run 3:35 assuming an even pace.
So if the track had really been short, why didn't the men run any faster? Ren Longyun is the Chinese record holder at 10000m with 28:08 and anywhere near that ability would have put a runner of his ability under 27 minutes if the track had been sufficiently short.
But it didn't happen. So why would the track have only been short for the women's distance races?
wayfool wrote:
Can you think of another country that has such a gender discrepancy in performance at middle and long distances??
Saudi Arabia.
The times are not legit.
One person breaking 4 distance world records out of 5 races in a week and one was in a prelim?
5 women breaking the 3000m world record in one race?
The 3000m record being lowered by 16 seconds?
No video of the races?
None of these performances being approached again by these athletes?
Forget drugs.
They had to start from the wrong line.
zatopek wrote:
I read in the international edition of the NY Times today that the former head of the Chinese Olympic committee admitted that most of the star runners from the 2000 Olympic team were dropped from the team because they tested positive for banned. This is the first official confirmation that the runners of "Ma's Army" were using illegal drugs.
Sorry I can't find the link but it is from the global edition of the NY Times.
_______________________________
Sure, sure. Next you will tell me that the Eastern German fmale swimmers were juiced. And, why stop there? I suppose Salazar juiced too right?
Really? Seriously? Then why isn't distance running completely dominated by Asians? They should be crushing everyone else if that is the case.
The first two big red flags for doping are:
1. An athlete comes out of nowhere to set a world record, usually in a race that conveniently does not drug test except for the day of the race. The performance is rarely or in some cases never repeated.
2. The athlete is a female, and the program (nation, team, coach, etc) never produces a male athlete who is even remotely elite. (If the training program is the main reason for success, it should work just as well for men as for women.)
Using those two criteria explains why most (probably not all) of the African distance runners are clean, most of the American swimmers (probably not all) are clean, and all the Chinese women who set these "world records" (as well as the East German female swimmers from the 1970's and 1980's) are dirty.
Sean Nunn
Raytown South
ventolin (real) wrote:
moron.
Chinese anatomy dictates processing 2.8ml/O2*h3T WHICH IS 42% superior to caucasian. Female 10K record is 100% legitimate. Wunxia Jang could have 3:51/13:57/29:07. You r all morons to think otherwise.
First of all you're idiot for posting some obscure fact that makes no sense. Where is that study? and why is it that Chinese people who have one quarter of the worlds talent pool and according to you an advantage of 42% don't win every medal at the WC/OC's. In fact they only won one medal at the last WC and "caucasian" girls one two. The vast majority of the other medals went to Kenyans and Ethiopians and neither of those great distance running country's have been able to produce a runner that was as fast as those miracle runners from 1 year in China. You don't find that odd?
To all the other morons on this board who are hypothesizing left out laps and short tracks I'm pretty sure the IAAF has to certify both a track and a race for it to be a valid world record. And i would bet that it was also on video.
The track can be certified at 400m.
The start lines can be certified.
The timing can be certified.
Is there an IAAF official that verifies that they started at the correct line for a ratified record? I really don't know.
As far is video, in 2009 it seems like you can find video of every major race or least every world record on the internet except for that meet in China in 1993.
I got to see the 1968 Olympic Trials 1500m race online.
I just youtubed Marita Koch's 400m record from 1985.
I've never seen video of these races or even clips of them when they televise any track meets. Someone please post the videos if you have them!
ventolin (real) (real) wrote:
Rubbish. Not my posting style.
Moron.
You are all morons!
Did you try google? I've seen longer clips, but I found this one in all of three seconds:
ventolin^2 wrote:
ventolin (real) (real) wrote: Rubbish. Not my posting style. Moron.Troll. Not my style of post.
not my style of post. rubbish. troll. moron.
back to original point....anyone who says junxia is cheating is a jealous loser. my uncle lived in ma's camp and passed 7 polygraphs about drug use. furthermore the o2 consumption studythat i referred to earlier proves chinese physiological capability for wr.
i will analyze her true capabilities via juco tonight and post. as stated earleir sub 14 was doable maybevsubv13:50.
I have the greatest of admiration for Wang Junxia and for all of the Chinese distance runners.