My message to drug cheats (especially those from Africa)

"moron

12'56 only places him 8th on current junior list"

Hello friend, you mean the ridiculous fake junior list?

Here you have your juniors, you expert:

http://www.redorbit.com/news/sports/610202/age_cheating_as_serious_as_doping_iaaf/index.html

The current ability of the drug-free world elite can be inferred from the performances in the "drug-free" years 2000-2001 and the recent drop of performances caused by new EPO tests.

Not much faster than 1:42,50 in the 800 m, 3:28 in the 1500 m, 8:00 in the 3000 m steeple, 12:55 in the 5000 m, and 27:00 in the 10 000 m. Since EPO gives ca. 40 sec. boost in the 10 000 m, the estimations are fairly accurate.

"I know plenty of CLEAN Kenyans that have developed from a 13:31 5k runner to a sub 13 in the space of 12-18 months."

I looked at the current yearlist of the 5000 m. Among the Top 30 Kenyan or Ethiopian runners of this year, I was able to find only 2 runners, whose improvement was so fast:

Josphat Bett Kipkoech and Thomas Pkemei Longosiwa. Correct me, if I am wrong.

Not even the Topper-doper Bekele improved so quickly (in fact, his quick and straight rate of improvement in 2003 - after 3-years' of struggling - is certainly worthy of note.)

All others needed at least 2-3 years to get on the Komen's level from the 13:30-13:45 range.

The listed ages are completely worthless, of course.

Considering that performances in all distances currently fall (because the cheaters are afraid of new tests), and the huge difference between the best (i.e. doped) runner and the rest of the pack naturally decreases, we can expect that the world's elite will be now composed of both clean and doping athletes. In fact, I think that runners in middle distances may be largely clean already. This year's times in the 3-10 km are on the level that could have been expected, if the improvement since the late 80's would have been linear. But of course, nobody can say, if the improvement could have been really linear without drugs.

Oh, now I realized that our stellar friend Thomas Longosiwa is mentioned in that article about cheating juniors. Since he is so honest and ended in prison only for several days, he wouldn't touch drugs, would he?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Longosiwa

compare the results of 2005 2006 world juniors belainesh Gebre and Workitu Ayanu

There PB's are exactly the same 1:10:25 and 1:10:35

So Czech guy who do you think among the African elite is clean or better yet who do you think is clean period? According to you its impossible for other countries to be better than us at something.

CzechGuy wrote:

The current ability of the drug-free world elite can be inferred from the performances in the "drug-free" years 2000-2001 and the recent drop of performances caused by new EPO tests.

Not much faster than 1:42,50 in the 800 m, 3:28 in the 1500 m, 8:00 in the 3000 m steeple, 12:55 in the 5000 m, and 27:00 in the 10 000 m. Since EPO gives ca. 40 sec. boost in the 10 000 m, the estimations are fairly accurate.

I certainly wouldn't say that 2000-01 were "drug-free" years. There were plenty of athletes caught after this period who most probably were taking them then, and many who were taking it during this period who got away with it.

The testing at this time was pretty unreliable anyway.

ventolin^2 wrote:

CzechGuy wrote:

Does anybody on this forum really think that some human being can run 13:31 and the next year, it breaks the world record in 12:56??? And as a 19-years old "junior"? Or were the Kenyans and Ethiopians from 1994-1996 just some extra-terrestials? Or do some extra-terrestials visit this forum and they are sure that it is possible?

moron

12'56 only places him 8th on current junior list

if your cretinaceous drivel had any basis whatsoever, why didn't mosima run 7'17 ???

LOL! BIASED MORON!

Does EPO only work on Africans? Why have only five non-Africans beaten David Moorcroft's 5k time from 1982? Why is the 27:08 from Arturo Barrios in 1989 still the fastest non-African 10k time? If EPO testing is so unreliable you would think that everyone would be doing it and that everyone's times would be increasing.

zeta wrote:

Does EPO only work on Africans? Why have only five non-Africans beaten David Moorcroft's 5k time from 1982? Why is the 27:08 from Arturo Barrios in 1989 still the fastest non-African 10k time? If EPO testing is so unreliable you would think that everyone would be doing it and that everyone's times would be increasing.

1. African's born at altitude have a genetic advantage anyway. EPO will clearly have a more dramatic effect on those with higher natural oxygen uptake. Putting high quality fuel in a large porsche engine is going to have a greater % improvement than if you put the same fuel in a skoda.

2. Moorcroft was a great and untapped talent.

3. With the rapid onset of African emergence in early 90's, most Europeans shied away from the 10k, which was the main thrust of CzechGuy's original (now deleted) thread.

4. Most European countries (and US) have had stringent out of season testing since the late 80's to deter their athletes and make it more difficult to get caught. Something which can hardly be said for some of the African nations.

weIInow wrote:

Yes quite a few of us acutually. Because we aren't all conpiracy theorists like you. Do you think the Moon landings were faked too?

Extra-terrestials? Hmmm.

goddamn, you're a moron

zeta wrote:

Does EPO only work on Africans? Why have only five non-Africans beaten David Moorcroft's 5k time from 1982? Why is the 27:08 from Arturo Barrios in 1989 still the fastest non-African 10k time? If EPO testing is so unreliable you would think that everyone would be doing it and that everyone's times would be increasing.

Because the europeans have been doping since at least the 70s. The doping might be better now, but the talent pool is also more shallow. 1/6 (23 of 151) athletes blood tested at the 2006 EC had a 50%+ crit and they don't only blood test distance runners. It's time to wake up and realize that doping is quite common in this sport and has been so for decades.

Lol, you should go away to focus your thoughts and arguments. Your points at the beginning raised some possible cases but now you are just tarnishing any athlete that has come from the East African area. I have a lot of experience in the Kenyan/Ethiopian area and I am aware of certain suspicious groups and agents. For the record, you have not mentioned or come close to name ANY of these. It only proves to me that you are bluffing and working on guess work.

Please also realize that most of these initial times that are posted by "up and coming" Africans are posted on dirt tracks (wet and sticky dirt tracks as the rains fall during track season in East Africa) and in the majority of cases the track is not an exact 400m. Lets not mention the altitude. I have seen the majority of the current senior athletes emerge through the schools environment, seen them win national championships in 13:55-14:10 and then travel to Europe and post sub 13:15 first time out. I do not believe this athlete has acquired and administered EPO in the meantime.

I also would like somebody to list ALL the Kenyan/Ethiopian/Ugandan/Eritrean/Tanzanian athletes that have been convicted of a doping offense. Then go and eliminate those that are known to have spent 90% of the year training within the East African area. I only know of one athlete that has been guilty of such an offense and he tells me it was administered during training bases in Europe and Asia (where the enviornment is suited to administering/storing/monitoring doping abuses)..... I can only laugh at your vision of an athlete sitting in tin hut in Kaptagat with the bag of drugs under the bed!

I don't think there was anywhere near as many athletes doping (certainly in middle and distance running) up to the mid 80's as there has been since the early 90's.

Yes, there was the Eastern block and US collegiate use of steroids in sprint and power events in the 70's, and the odd Finn blood doping, but I really don't think there were many distance runners in the 60's, 70's and early 80's. Primarily because there was limited money in the sport for those guys, certainly compared to the prize money of the last 20 years, and partly because what was available for endurance athletes was unreliable and highly dangerous. It would have required a pretty well organised, almost state run programme. WR evolution was fairly realistic. It only went through the roof in the mid '90's.

EPO is far more effective, largely undetectable, and much safer.

moron

does that mean all on the list are age-cheats or all but komen ???

which is it ???

drivel

like 1'42.01 ???

idiot

1'42.01 is helluva lot faster than 1'42.50

- 7'58 was run this year - that's fast

- choge the 2nd best kenyan by a long way runs 3'29 this year - the top guy stopped his season after berlin instead of trying to redeem himself in zurich

- the 5k was a jackpot event - that means kennster didn't chase times in it - he wanted the win, not doing anything to lose - meaning not chasing 12'35 & blowing up - do you have a f***ing clue ???

- kennster & tadesse ran 26'46 & 26'50 in a tactical 10k in berlin - are you such a moron that you consider this 27'00 level ???

show me some studies moron, don't spout drivel

All I ever get from a Vetonlin post is,

"blah blah blah, LAGAT! blah blah blah, KENNESTER! blah blah blah Tadesse! blah blah blah"

Pick new athletes before even the retards of letsrun catch on to your mindless musings.

nonsense

africans may have at close to upper limit haematocrit & epo is unlikely to be able to stimulate an already near-max pumping bone marrow to yield further erythropoeisis compared to a euro with a lower haematocrit & much further potential to synthesise rbc

no

it is more like changing that's v8 to a v10, compared to changing the skoda's from a v4 to a v8

wada make up the shortfall of tests

epopians wrote:and partly because what was available for endurance athletes was unreliable and highly dangerous

drivel

it's a blood transfusion

people have 100,000s of these every day of every year in the world - are people dying in their 1000s every day from transfusions ???

with any decent experienced doc & proper x-matching/diuretic cover it is very reliable & very safe form of doping - still the best

"africans may have at close to upper limit haematocrit"

Saltin et al. (1995) documented hemoglobine concentration of 15,4-15,9 ng/dL in a group of elite Kenyan runners training at altitude. That's a bit more than the usual European value on the sea level (15,3 ng/dL - US norms for whites), but much lower than values measured in the Andean highlanders (18,1 ng/dL) and Tibetans (16,9 ng/dL).

Lucia et al. (2006) documented hemoglobine concentration of 15,4 ng/dL in a group of elite Eritrean runners, which is again not more than in Europeans. Why?

The secret of East African altitude adaptations was discovered by Beall et al. in 2002: A sample of Ethiopians with hemoglobine concentration of 15,9 ng/dL possessed much higher saturation of hemoglobine with oxygen (95%) than Tibetans and Andean highlanders (90%). In other words, the saturation of hemoglobine in their blood don't decrease as sharply as in other people. However, this can't bring any advatage for sports performance at seal level.

"people have 100,000s of these every day of every year in the world - are people dying in their 1000s every day from transfusions"

This doping method actually relies on artifical inspissation of blood removed from the body. As a result, after the blood is again infused into the body, the concentration of hematocrit in the blood increases. It is a primitive method by today's EPO standards, but still very effective. An increase of performance in the 10 000 m by 68 sec. was reported in moderately trained runners. Naturally, it can be as dangerous as EPO overdose, if the volume of infused blood is too volumnous.

"like 1'42.01 ???"

The second best time of Rudisha is 1:43,52. The second best time of Yego (1:42,67 in Rieti) is 1:43,66. The track in Rieti often produces strange performances that are difficult to explain. It is possible that these two guys will never get close to these Rieti times in their whole career.

Please, next time try to be more sophisticated, Mr. expert. You would only ridicule yourself. I usually call such fools various derogatory names, but I don't want to destroy the decent level of this thread.

"does that mean all on the list are age-cheats or all but komen ???"

Very probably all of the runners with incredible times. No registry records exist in East Africa (as far as I know), so all their birth data are fabricated and unreliable.

"7'58 was run this year - that's fast"

But not much faster than 8:00. Can we come to an agreement?

"kennster & tadesse ran 26'46 & 26'50 in a tactical 10k in berlin"

The dramatic improvement of both these guys after several years of stagnation leaves virtually no doubt that they belong to the same category of stagnating last-ditchers like Tergat or Bermasai.

"The testing at this time was pretty unreliable anyway."

But not in the sense that would give false results. To the contrary, they give too many negative results. Yegorova was freed in 2001, but was definitively caught 7 years later.

"Does EPO only work on Africans? Why have only five non-Africans beaten David Moorcroft's 5k time from 1982? Why is the 27:08 from Arturo Barrios in 1989 still the fastest non-African 10k time? If EPO testing is so unreliable you would think that everyone would be doing it and that everyone's times would be increasing."

And non-Africans don't use EPO? They use it. But in other sports. They think that EPO-loaded African runners are superhumans, with which they can't compete. I discussed it in detail in the previous thread that was deleted. White runners largely left track in mid 80's and let it to Africans. The white runners we see now are mostly second-class competitors.

"African's born at altitude have a genetic advantage anyway. "

I must correct you here. They obviously don't have. Any of their strengths in long-distance running don't seem to be connected with superhuman values of VO2 max. They have very high VO2 max. values, indeed (roughly 80 ml/kg.min, with some runners achieving 85 ml/kg.min), but when their small body size is taken into account, the development of their VO2 max. is actually lower than in Europeans.

It can be speculated that the VO2 max. in East African highlanders is higher than in East African lowlanders, because most African lowland groups have lower hemoglobine concentration than Europeans. But so far, no detailed studies exist.

"Because the europeans have been doping since at least the 70s. The doping might be better now, but the talent pool is also more shallow. "

Exactly what I think. Actually, the partial reemergence of white times in the late 90's may be caused by the fact that the B-category white runners left on track started to take EPO, too.

"Your points at the beginning raised some possible cases but now you are just tarnishing any athlete that has come from the East African area. I have a lot of experience in the Kenyan/Ethiopian area and I am aware of certain suspicious groups and agents. For the record, you have not mentioned or come close to name ANY of these. It only proves to me that you are bluffing and working on guess work."

I have never said that all East Africans are doped. Where did you read it in my posts? I only say that their elite is doped to the heels. Do you think that even clean Africans are not tempted to take drugs, when they see that they can't compete with their drug-loaded countrymen? One of the fastest improving guys in the history of the 5000 m, our friend Longosiwa, is also a man, who lets his passport to be falsified in order to cheat at the World's Junior Championship. Certainly only some coincidence! He is just a poor pastoral man, who wouldn't dare to touch aspirine.

"I can only laugh at your vision of an athlete sitting in tin hut in Kaptagat with the bag of drugs under the bed!"

You obviously don't have any idea about the purpose of EPO doping. It is not a training aid, hence it is useless during the training season. The athletes are injected shortly before the start of the season in the spring and subsequently can benefit from the increased level of hematocrit for 3-4 months (the typical lifetime of a blood cell). Wasn't Chepchumba caught in March? Logically, they must be "re-loaded" in the mid-summer. I think that an analysis of the calendar data, when EPO-cheaters were caught, would be worthy of effort.