Charles Atlas Shrugs wrote:
There is NOWHERE on earth where one can reasonably sleep at 12-13,000 feet and the in a blink of an eye be at sea level to train.
You can get close, though. Ryan Hall can sleep at Big Bear, California (7000ft) and drive downhill to San Bernadino (1000ft). It only takes half an hour, so that's a reasonable training method.
You can get close, though. Ryan Hall can sleep at Big Bear, California (7000ft) and drive downhill to San Bernadino (1000ft). It only takes half an hour, so that's a reasonable training method.
Similarly, I know a LOT of people who sleep at 8,000 feet in the mountains around Nederland and train around 5,000 feet in the eastern burbs of Denver (an hour away). You could also get the same effect on the Western Slope -- some Mesa towns are around 8,000 feet, and then you can drive about an hour to the border where it's 4,000 feet.
And extrapolating that further, if a training camp is willing to invest in a bus, there are a ton of places in Colorado where you are three hours away from living at 8,500 feet and training at 3,500 feet. If you do hi-hi-lo, you only need a few trips a week.
Q: what does america have that africa doesn't have?
A: money. shit loads of money. the east africans are using their running culture (running to school, etc.), and the altitude of the area to there advantage and ruling the world because of it. american needs to use its mind boggling amounts of filthy lucre to its advantage. AlSal seems to understand this, and i am very glad one of our most talented (Webb) is training with him. We're not yet fully maximizing our potential when it comes to money, and if we don't we'll never return to the top.
does anyone remember Mark Steinle?british marathoner who started to use an altitude tent and suddenly was running 30+k at WR pace next to Haile, Tergat and KK.
you should link/show proof about claim (b
Ritz has been training and living recently at alititude - get your facts straight 1st
Paula also lives & trains at altitude for long periods at time
If its not illegal then its not cheating especially as its done openly. I think the tents are a waste of money - most of the EA's don't use them when living low and they don't seem to run too bad!
Does Bekele use the tent?
Don't compare EPO to a naffing tent if the tent is banned or not its neither here not there
I'm going running.
Paula "trains in Albuquerque" and we all know what that means.
They shouldn't be banned:
1. The results could be acquired naturally by sleeping at high altitude and driving to lower after you wake up.
2. It's not unhealthy and has no negative side effects or possible consequences like drugs do.
3. Every professional athlete can do it.
4. There is no way that an altitude tent takes more than a couple seconds off a 5k time. Surely NOT 10 seconds off the 5k and a few minutes off a marathon.
altitude tent cheats out! wrote:
Clearly they are as big an advantage as using EPO, so it is complete hypocrisy to bash EPO use and not altitude tent use. And before some of you try clever replies:
1) tents are NOT the same as living at altitude. Tents let you sleep at extremely high altitude anywhere you live, and then immediately train at sea level. That is not a natural scenario.
2) breathing in synthetic air to boost your epo, is no different than injecting a synthetic substance to boost your epo. And yes, it IS synthetic air, as in rAIR.
3) they may not be illegal now, but WADA was looking very closely at banning them, and wanted to, but didn't know how to do so. In other words, this is no different than blood doping in the 70's & '80's before it was illegal, yet many cast aspersion at Viren and others for a practice that was not illegal, but certainly unnatural and an unfair advantage, just as altitude tents are.
Look, sure Paula and Ritz are great runners on their own right, but if you think both of them didn't get a ~3% advantage from these things, you are nuts. Paula is a 2:19/2:20 marathoner without the tent, and ritz is a 13:05 guy without one.
ALTITUDE TENT CHEATS OUT!
Paula didn't use an altitude tent. Typical letsrun myth.
As I understand it, the EPO used synthetically, while perhaps being close to bioidentical, is ever so slightly different chemically than naturally occurring EPO. So, sleeping in a tent that simulates altitude is not quite the same thing. Sleeping/living at altitude also stimulates other factors, such as VEGF.
Now, I don't know how logistically feasible it is for the Kenyans/Ethiopians/Mexicans to sleep at altitude and train lower, just as I don't know how much of an advantage it is to be born and grow up at altitude as in Hall's case. Wejo promoted this early on, sleeping in his car above Flagstaff and then training sometimes in Phoenix. I often wondered why people don't do the same with living up near Mt. Lemmon 30-40 minutes outside of Tucson (8,000-10,000') and then drop to Tucson for training at 2000'.
What I do believe is that Ritz wouldn't have broken 13:00 WITHOUT the altitude tent. And he achieved the manner of altitude/training in a way that most others around the world wouldn't have been afforded. Probably the same thing with Rupp. But rather than ban them, I'll bet they become more ubiquitous. And, perhaps, the East Africans can feasibly live high and train low anyway.
Charles Atlas Shrugs wrote:
See, there is where you are wrong. There is NOWHERE on earth where one can reasonably sleep at 12-13,000 feet and the in a blink of an eye be at sea level to train. Your jet idea is silly, and would never occur, and again, you know it, but chose to be silly. And guess what, IF someone did indeed do that, then bravo, they are not breathing in man-made synthetic air, they are breathing in air real air ("thinner" when they sleep).
Not very good at geography, huh?
They could workout at Iquique in Chile (sea level) then take a direct 45minute flight to La Paz, where they can sleep at 12,000 ft.
You don't believe he would have run sub 13 without it? You have 0 basis or proof to make that statement, you just decided that you don't feel like believing it. Youre statement is worthless.
Sagarin wrote:
As I understand it, the EPO used synthetically, while perhaps being close to bioidentical, is ever so slightly different chemically than naturally occurring EPO. So, sleeping in a tent that simulates altitude is not quite the same thing. Sleeping/living at altitude also stimulates other factors, such as VEGF.
Now, I don't know how logistically feasible it is for the Kenyans/Ethiopians/Mexicans to sleep at altitude and train lower, just as I don't know how much of an advantage it is to be born and grow up at altitude as in Hall's case. Wejo promoted this early on, sleeping in his car above Flagstaff and then training sometimes in Phoenix. I often wondered why people don't do the same with living up near Mt. Lemmon 30-40 minutes outside of Tucson (8,000-10,000') and then drop to Tucson for training at 2000'.
What I do believe is that Ritz wouldn't have broken 13:00 WITHOUT the altitude tent. And he achieved the manner of altitude/training in a way that most others around the world wouldn't have been afforded. Probably the same thing with Rupp. But rather than ban them, I'll bet they become more ubiquitous. And, perhaps, the East Africans can feasibly live high and train low anyway.
The altitude tent certainly didn't hurt. Of course I have no basis in fact, guy. That's why I said I "believe." I hardly doubt that I'm the only one based on the spirit of this thread.
That said, maybe it merely serves to level the "genetic playing field" anyway with the Africans. They're not illegal, so you can hardly condemn them. Doesn't mean they don't confer an advantage, especially if sleep is set up around sherpa levels.
Ban all altitude training then.
Ban those born at altitude or those who train at altitude or live at altitude.
Your slogan shall be "keep it on the level".
Besides, I already acknowledged on multiple threads that Ritz was capable of 13:05-13:10 when he dropped that 8:11 two-mile two years ago stateside.
I dig Ritz... don't get me wrong. I was the one saying he would beat Rupp at worlds, which was not the consensus thinking. I said he would run around 27:17 this year, which was not the consensus thinking.
But I have to wonder, would Pre have broken 13:00 with an altitude tent? Or Dave Moorcroft?
Holy crap the "logic" used on this board to try and refute my points is weak. It is 100% clear that ya'll know the tents are a form of cheating, and desperately want your Paula's and Ritz's to not have to give them out and go back to being dusted.
cmurph wrote:
Well first of all, how is "synthetic" air different from actual high altitude air?
It's different. It adds more nitrogen to the air.
"Rather than simulate altitude with low air pressure, the altitude tent remains at normal air pressure, substituting low concentration of oxygen for low pressure. While normal air contains 20.9% oxygen independent of altitude, the air in an altitude tent contains as little as 12% oxygen (the remainder being nitrogen). "
cmurph wrote:And 2nd of all, doesn't the body have control mechanisms to keep the blood from become too thick due to too much red blood cell production? I would think Synthetic Epo would bypass these mechanisms whereas sleeping in an altitude tent would not
Of course you would think that, because you desperately want alt tents to be legal. It may be easier to die from epo abuse, but one could certainly overdo the altitude tents (put them at too high of an altitude, and use them too long). You've head of altitude sickness, right?
wellnow wrote:
Paula didn't use an altitude tent. Typical letsrun myth.
wellnow: Do you EVER get tired of being wrong?!??! Paula never used tents? (this took 5 seconds to find, and this is old article. She's used them for years)
http://www.active.com/fitness/Articles/If_doping_is_banned__should_altitude_tents_be_allowed_for_endurance_athletes_.htmThe tents are legal so it's not cheating. And I doubt that will ever change because how do you enforce it? And I doubt there's ever been a clinical study that demonstrates that it's time spent in the tent and not the placebo affect that's responsible for the performance gains.
And what's the difference between using the tent and training in Iquique and taking the hop up to La Paz to spend the night?
Your point appears to be:Those born at altitude have a genetic advantage over those that don't. So we are now allowing anything that will close that gap?? Some are born with more testosterone production than others? Why not allow testosterone injections? Synthetically it is virtually the same was the body's testosterone. So is synthetic EPO. In fact, both are more similar to the natural versions than the synthetic air in alt tents is to natural high altitude air. Why not allow blood transfusions from your own stored blood. IT'S YOUR OWN BLOOD! That seems more natural to me than does an altitude tent.
terencenorts wrote:
Look at it this way. Most East Africans (and several good Americans including Ryan Hall) were born at high altitude. They can train at altitude and reap the benefits of altitude training when they come down to sea level. However, unlike those of us born at sea level, they are able to train almost as hard at altitude as they are at sea level because they are used to the altitude. For example, Hugo (Hilda Kibet's Dutch husband) told me that he can be in 63 minute half marathon shape, but if Lornah is in 66/67 minute shape she will kick his ass when they get to Iten because she is used to the altitude/terrain, etc. This is clearly an advantage they have that those born at sea level aren't given, even though these athletes have obviously done nothing wrong. I am not trying to use this to justify the use of altitude tents (they seem over the top to me), but I think that they are just trying to give athletes born at sea level the same advantages that those born at altitude have. If you started to ban something like an altitude tent you open up a whole new can of worms and the line between right/wrong and moral/immoral becomes very blurry.