Renato Canova's marathon training information

Hodgie-san RE: TRAINING 10/13/2003 7:14AM - in reply to Renato Canova

Renato say:

>Kenyan marathoners are the greatest power in the world about the distance. However, when I say that Kenyans have not a correct mentality for running marathon, I really want to say that for Kenyans Marathon isn't a specialism in their mind from the beginning of their activity. Kenyans fear marathon, don't love it. Ethiopians love marathon.<

Fearing the marathon is perfectly sensible, to me. Kenya may not be as successful as one would expect, in championship events, however I believe that if they do not have the "correct mentality" for the event, no one does.

Hussein & Ndeti specialized in running the Boston Marathon and came away with three wins each. Both trained primarily in Kenya. (Hussein also spent time in Arizona/New Mexico)

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pre101 RE: TRAINING 10/13/2003 9:58AM - in reply to Renato Canova

Renato,

Can you discuss your philosophy as it releates to Lydiard.

How do you respond to Lydiard, when he says that once

you start anaerobic dev., you no longer can improve aerobic.?

Keep your info coming!

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Renato Canova RE: TRAINING 10/13/2003 4:24PM - in reply to pre101

There's a big difference between athletics of 40 years ago and athletics of today. At the time of Lydiard, activity was very little, lasting only a short part of the season. This fact suggested to use LONG PERIODS OF PREPARATION, during which it was possible to work for blocks (aerobic development before anaerobic workouts). Today, this type of training is no more possible, if you want to compete frequently following the current calendar. When Snell and Elliot won OG, the number of races that they ran in the season was really very little : there was no professionalism in the activity, because athletes had amateur status also if their level was at the top. This fact, that provoked short durations in the career of many athletes (Elliot finished his activity only 22y. old, after winning OG with the new world record...), on the other side permitted a very deep preparation for those athletes that had no problems of money or of job, and wanted to test themselves at their max. level.

For example, in marathon Derek Clayton was already able running in 2:08.37 in 1969, preparing his world best with more than 5 months of training without other competitions.

Now, a top runner wants to compete in the most part of the season, running different distances.

So, the modern system has to take into account the needs of the athletes.

Growing at the same time (if we are talking about a period of 2 months, for example) in endurance and speed is not only possible, but absolutely correct.

If you stay long time in aerobic activity, you can extend your base for next period, but cannot bring your Anaerobic Threshold on a very high level, so you need more long time for building high intensity later. After I continue my discussion.

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Renato Canova RE: TRAINING 10/13/2003 5:21PM - in reply to Renato Canova

What is important to understand is that there are TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF TRAINING :

1) SPECIFIC TRAINING for your SPECIFIC SHAPE for the important races

2) TRAINING for SPECIFIC TRAINING

For example, if you are able running 4 times 400m in 53" recovering 4 min, and with this SPECIFIC WORK you can run 1'46" on 800m, if you want running in 1'45" is clear that you have two different possibilities (about tthe evolution of this workout) :

a) 4 x 400 in 53" using 3 min recovery instead 4'

(improvement in specific endurance reducing recovery time)

b) 4 x 400 in 52"5 always with 4 min recovery

(improvement in specific speed endurance running faster)

c) 5 x 400 in 53" using 4 min recovery

(improvement in endurance running a bigger volume)

The goal in training is clear. The question is : HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO DO IT ?

Lovers of intensity say : run 4 x 400 trying running faster, going directly to solution b) spending some time

Who believs in aerobic base, says : before try to develop your AEROBIC POWER, for having a higher base for working in anaerobic way.

For example, we can extend the SPECIFIC BASE running a crescent number of 400m in slower time : 10 x 400 in 60" recovery 1 min, that develops in 8 x 400 in 57" rec. 1'30", that can develop in 6 x 400 in 54"5 rec. 2', that can develop in 5 x 400 in 53" rec. 4', that can develop in 5 x 400 in 52" - 52"5 rec. 4', that at the end can develop in 4 x 400 in 51"5 - 52" rec. 3'.

For running 10 x 400 in 60", you NEED MORE AEROBIC BASE.

For running 4 x 400 in 51"5, you NEED MORE SPEED.

So, you can combine at the same time workouts of Aerobic base (1 h progressive run, 40' fast, 20' very hard) with workouts of pure speed and strenght (short sprints uphill, speed drawing a sledge, exercises of explosivity), trying to improve the speed in the first, to last more in the second.

AT THE SAME TIME, WE IMPROVE OUR SPEED IN ENDURANCE (because is also easier running a little bit faster when your speed is better) and our ENDURANCE IN SPEED (as is possible running very close your max. speed for a longer time).

ALL THE DISTANCES ARE OF SPEED, as in any case the winner is the fastest.

ALL TRAINING IS OF ENDURANCE, because you can always to last more long time very close your max. intensity.

SO, TRAINING ENDURANCE WE CAN IMPROVE IN SPEED, and of course is correct also the contrary.

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Hodgie-san RE: TRAINING 10/14/2003 3:42AM - in reply to Renato Canova Renato:

>There's a big difference between athletics of 40 years ago and athletics of today. At the time of Lydiard, activity was very little, lasting only a short part of the season. This fact suggested to use LONG PERIODS OF PREPARATION, during which it was possible to work for blocks (aerobic development before anaerobic workouts). Today, this type of training is no more possible, if you want to compete frequently following the current calendar. When Snell and Elliot won OG, the number of races that they ran in the season was really very little : there was no professionalism in the activity, because athletes had amateur status also if their level was at the top.<

In 1959/60 Murray Halberg NZ Gold Medalist in Rome, Lydiard disciple ran 30 races including trips to US & England. I believe the Lydiard athletes built this large base and sought to maintain it while racing at different levels of intensity nearly year round.

Same as today.

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perspective RE: TRAINING 10/14/2003 5:05AM - in reply to Hodgie-san

Training systems evolve or are greatly affected by environment. As Lydiard developed his training, it was in the context of New Zealand competitive calendar.

We all know that the American competitive calendar is at odds with the European calendar. We're not as far away from Europe as New Zealand and Australia, but in mentality we may well be further. Americans base their training/racing on the school year: xc in the fall, indoors in the winter, outdoors concluding in June. Consequently, we'll have an indoor champion, Krummenacker, fail to progress to the finals outdoors.

White Boy Roy RE: TRAINING 10/29/2003 4:28PM - in reply to Just A Runner

I would like to ask Mr. Canova a question regarding the marathon. Excuse me if this has already been covered but I made copies of this thread and haven't read through it completely.

Specifically, how much speedwork is necessary for a 36 year-old 2:19 marathoner trying to run 2:13-2:15?

Do 200's and 400's at near max-effort even help at all?

I have no natural speed (56.0 400, 3:45 1500) and fore me these days to run 28 for a 200 takes a lot of focus and weeks of specific training.

I am attempting to get back in top shape next year and am uncertain whether a regular session of fast 150-300 meter repeats make any positive difference.

Everyone's opinion is appreciated.

Incidentally, I agree with the post concern Gaston Roelants putting in the shorter high-quality stuff before the high volume period. It makes perfect sense to me.

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Renato Canova RE: TRAINING 10/29/2003 4:53PM - in reply to White Boy Roy

Repetitions of 200 and 400m are no more used in modern marathon training. We don't use normally speed faster than 10% of your Marathon Pace (for example, for an athlete able running at 3:00 pace in 2:06:36, 110% in 2:42 in 1000m : this is the max. speed that we use, going till 400m in 64.0-65.0 for 15-20 times, but exalting recovery (f.e. 200m in 45.0). However, running distances under 1 km can have only mechanical reasons, and of sure is not a fundamental work.

If you want to run at 3'10" / 3'12" pace, your main works are around that speed. You must remember that marathon IS A SPECIALISM OF EXTENSION. So, for example, you can develop your SPECIFIC MARATHON ENDURANCE with these workouts (once every two weeks) :

* 8 x 2000m in 6'20" rec. 1000m in 3'40" (23 km in 1:16:20)

* 6 x 3000m in 9'30" rec. 1000m in 3'40" (23 km in 1:15:20)

* 5 x 4000m in 12'40" rec. 1000m in 3'40" (24 km in 1:18:00)

* 4 x 5000m in 15'50" rec. 1000m in 3'40" (23 km in 1:14:20)

* 3 x 7000m in 22'10" rec. 1000m in 3'40" (23 km in 1:13:50)

* 6/5/4/3/2/1 km rec. 1 km improving speed (19'12" at 3'12"-15'50" at 3'10" - 12'32" at 3'08" - 9'18" at 3'06" - 6'08" at 3'04" - last km under 3', rec. 1 km in 3'40") = 26 km

At the same time, you must develop your long run, alternating every 10 days a work having different goals :

* DURATION (moderate speed, becoming from 2 hr, increasing of 15 min every time, arriving at 2:45 at the 5th session)

* DISTANCE (at a 3'20" pace, starting from 25 km, for going to 30 - 34 - 38 in 4 different sessions).

The normal development of your preparation can be done during a period of about 3 months.

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emil's friend RE: TRAINING 10/29/2003 6:41PM - in reply to Renato Canova

i'am in Europe. Please don't put americans runners down. by the way, How many olimpic medalist have you trained?........0? oh............................thanks

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emil's friend RE: TRAINING 10/29/2003 6:44PM - in reply to Renato Canova

Renato, how fast have YOU ran ? Too many numbers, no medals, no results.Advice: keep simple.

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tinman RE: TRAINING 10/29/2003 9:29PM - in reply to Renato Canova

Renato, again, many thanks for sharing your wisdom and experience.

Question, are you saying that long runs in which you alternate race pace with 1km reps at 10% slower than race pace is a good simulator or conditioner for the marathon...and the other workout of primary importance is a long run of 2- 2hr 45 minutes? How much slower should a marathoner run in the long runs of "Duration" be compared to race pace?

By the way, I have been claiming for some 15 or more years that the best training pace is within 5% of race pace and everything else is just mileage at whatever pace helps you maintain circulatory efficiency and fuel efficiency. I have witnessed many time how runner who have done a lot of average paced mileage can drop down at the start of a race season and run a lot faster than their training paces. It made me wonder why everyone is so obsessed with running ast in workouts. I ran a 15:13 5000m run on 45 miles per week and only once ran below 6 minutes (5:52 for two miles in training). Now, I know that I was not world class, nor was I running high mileage, but doesn't it seem odd that a person can run that fast in a race without running fast in training. I coached a 10,000m guy who had a mile personal best of 4:38 who ran 32:23 on 70 miles per week of nothing but 7:00 paced runs. I coached a bunch of sprinters under 50 seconds for the 400m who never ran under 58 in training for a single 400m or 27 for the 200m. Mostly they ran about 10% slower than race pace, but at shorter distances with long recoveries between reps. Does anyone else see the disparity here between speed emphasis in training and that which can be achieved with merely consistent slower, strength workouts? Renato, what is the deal with speed and endurance? How much speed do we really need?

Dr. Blackjack RE: TRAINING 10/30/2003 9:18PM - in reply to emil's friend

Thank you for these posts.......great information. And Emil's friend, you judge a coach by how fast HE has run or only how many Olympic medalists he has coached? It's a stupid argument to say someone can't be a knowledgable coach without having been a world class runner himself.

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tinman RE: TRAINING 11/6/2003 6:42PM - in reply to Dr. Blackjack

Dr. Blackjack is right. Many elite runners can't relate to how difficult it is for average runners to succeed. Therefore, elite runners are only good coaches for other genetic freaks who could run a hundred repeat 400s and still win every race on the European circuit. Often, great coaches are runners of average talent who have an ability to intrepret and evaluate what works and what does not, irregardless of inherent talent. Three excellent coaches come to my mind. None of them were close to being world class, except at coaching: Bill Bowerman, Arthur Lydiard, Jumbo Elliott.

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Renato Canova RE: TRAINING 11/8/2003 8:52AM - in reply to tinman

I totally agree with you. Performances and results in big events are the product of talent (of the athlete) x goodness of training (that is the product of goodness of methodology x seriousness in application). So, there are always two different components in athletics success : THE ATHLETE and THE COACH. But, sometime a very talented athlete without a good coach can be able to reach top results (not to last, but sometime a good shape can be a casuality : how many athletes had a good results and then desappeared ?) ; never a good coach without talented athletes can push the same at the top.

Personally, the performance of a my athlete that gave me more satisfacion was a 2:18:23 in a marathon (Venice, '95) of a Swiss guy (was at that time the physiotherapist of Italian Team, working with us in Tirrenia, our national center), without any kind of talent (4:20 in 1500m, no elasticity, very bad running style), working 8 hours per day with our athletes, that had the will to train hard after finishing is job (sometime from 9 to 11 pm during September), that was a totally unthinkable performance.

And, about last year, of course I was satisfied about the victory of Shaheen in World Championships, but it was normal with his qualities. I was very more excited when I saw Nicholas Kemboi growing so fast, when I had the opportunity to discover his talent step by step after training him from 3 years but giving programs and never having the opportunity to stay with him for 75 continuous day for knowing his attitude before never discovered.

But it's also true that you can grow in your experience only having direct contacts with something new. So, during the last 6 years I matured more advanced ideas about human limits, about new types of training, about connections without different type of training and performance, about the importance of resting and/or modulating training. And these new ideas were possible because I had informations that only very talented athletes could give me. No books, no studies, no scientists can give me the same information. It's like a very good engineer, able to design a perfect car for travelling on Kenyan roads, that has in his mind and in his "theorical knowledges" the capacity of designing a "Formula One" like Ferrari or Williams, but cannot do it till when has not the opportunity to work at that level, discovering a lot of different problems that, before, he didn't know could exist.

A coach good for every athlete and for every kind of age and of value doesn't exist. I have problem, now, when I speak about the activity of very young people, and also when I speak about the activity of an amateur, because in my mind the normal level of talent, of training-sessions, of professionalism, and so of intensity in training, are very different from the level of basic activity, and it's not possible to do in miniature the same training of a champion for a normal athlete.

Simply, they are two different things.

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tinman RE: TRAINING 11/8/2003 11:45AM - in reply to Renato Canova

Renato:

I understand what you are saying. First, it can be very gratifying to help runners who have very little talent achieve very good performances. I too have enjoyed helping average persons achieve levels they only thought were part of their dream. On the cotrast, too, coaching genetically talented persons can be interesting. Such creatures mark territory that science has yet to quantify fully. A friend from Eugene, OR once told me that Steve Prefontaine would often party most of the night but get up early in the morning for a hard 10 mile run (at least 5:30 pace per mile); getting only 3-4 hours sleep. If that were me, I would be jogging a 10 miler. How can science measure such greatness fully?

For all it is worth, helping persons do better than they have before is what makes coaching joyful. I have coached both extremes and shun no persons. All that I ask is that they be honest with themselves about how much time and energy they can give to training. The one truth about athletics, irregardless of genetic gifts, is that dedication is the central ingredient of success. Dedication means making athletics a priority above which only basic necessities are more important like water, food, shelter, clothing, etc. It is OK to admit up front that athletics is marginally important if that is one's personal truth. There are no dillusions then and no excuses worth having. A coach can serve honest admonitions.

The art of coaching is interesting because each person is different. Key principles must be determined in order for an intelligent, cohesive training plan to be designed. In my opinion, one of the greates myths is that all runners need a certain amount of a given type of training. Example: All runners need 120-140 miles per week in order to be good 10k runners. If you can run 20 repeat 400s in 63 you can run a 10,000m race in 28:00. Such ridiculous statements hurt the sport because runners think that if they just work themselves to those standards then they too will be successful. What happens to a runner's confidence when they achieve such measures but run far slower than 28:00 in a race? Depression?

Sport is more than just times to be run or trophies to be won. If sport is just limited to those only then most persons are losers. I choose to believe that no person is a loser who runs many miles and pushes many intervals. I choose to think that sport's only real importance is the inherent worth of doing it as best one can. I have witnessed depression in one runner who achieved sub- 29:00 for the 10k for the first time in his life (it was a personal best by more than a minute). How can it be that a runner who devotes his life to sport and achieves a huge personal best time is so depressed that he attempts suicide? We have made sport too important if success is measured by how fast one runs or how well one performs at the Olympics. Let us always find joy in sport because it is sport. Let us find satisfaction in not our time or place but OUR EFFORT. Giving your all is what measures your greatness, whether that means winning the Boston Marathon, or whether that means running 19:00 for the 5k. It is not the place or the time that tells the truth of who a runner is and how hard they have fought. I have a good friend who has cerebral palsy. He tries harder than anyone I know when he trains and races. He is slow by world standards and never places near the front of any race or any division. I consider him to be an fine example of what a sportsperson should be: honest, dedicated, and willing to face adversity.

MARATHON RACE GENERAL PROGRAM FOR THE LAST 9 WEEKS OF PREPARATION

This program is proposed for athletes with an objective of 2:09:00 - 2:11:00

The program is thought for the preparation in altitude

When competing, leave altitude 3-7 days before the race

1st Week

Mon

1 hr 10min at 3’30” pace

1 hr easy

Tue

20min warm-up

7 x 2k at 3’10” > 3’06” pace

recovery 1k at 3’40” pace about

(Specific Marathon Endurance Workout)

Wed

1 hr easy regeneration

1 hr easy regeneration

Thu

1 hr easy regeneration

1 hr easy + 10 x 100m sprint uphill (max speed)

Fri

35 - 38k with variations

(15k easy + 5k alternating 1min fast / 1min slow +

10k marathon-pace + 2-5k easy + 3k max intensity (may be uphill also)

(Extensive-intensive long running)

Sat

45min

45min

Sun

1 hr easy regeneration

1 hr “moderate” (about 3’30” pace)

2nd Week

Mon

1 hr 10min at 3’30” pace

1 h easy

Tue

1 hr 20min at 3’30” pace

50min easy + 10 x 100m sprint uphill (max speed)

Wed

10k in 34min + 10k at 3’08” pace

(Special intensive block)

10k in 34min + 10 x 1000m in 2’55” / 2’58” recovery 2min jogging (on the track)

Thu

45min

45min

Fri

1 hr easy regeneration

1 hr easy

Sat

20min warm-up

20-23k hilly progressive running

Sun

2 hr - 2 hr 15min easy at personal sensation

3rd Week

Mon

1 hr easy

1 hr easy

Tue

1 hr 20min at 3’30” pace

50min easy + 10 x 100m sprint uphill (max speed)

Wed

20min warm-up

6 x 3k at 3’08” pace recovery 1k at 3’40” about

(tot 23 k about)

(Specific marathon endurance)

Thu

1 hr easy regeneration

1 hr easy

Fri

1 hr easy

1 hr easy

Sat

10k in 34min + 12k at 3’08” pace

(Special intensive block)

10 km in 34min + 5 x 2000m in 6’03” / 5’57” recovery 3min jogging (track)

Sun

45min

45min

4th Week

Mon

1 hr easy

1 hr easy

Tue

35-40k with variations (15k easy + 5k alternating 1min fast / 1min slow + 10k at marathon pace + 2-5k easy + 3-5k max intensity (uphill also)

(Extensive - Intensive long running)

Wed

45min

45min

Thu

1 hr easy

1 hr 10min at 3’30” pace

Fri

1 hr 10min at 3’30” pace

50min easy + 10 x 100m sprint uphill (max speed)

Sat

20min warm-up

22-25k hilly progressive running

Sun

2 hr 30min easy at personal sensation

5th Week

Mon

1 hr easy regeneration

(Period of three days of recovering)

Tue

1 hr easy regeneration

Wed

1 hr easy regeneration

Thu

1 hr 20min at 3’30” pace

1 hr easy

Fri

50min easy

50min easy

Sat

20min warm-up

5 x 4k increasing pace every time

(1st at 3’12” - 2nd at 3’09” - 3rd at 3’06” - 4th at 3’04” - 5th at 3’02”) recovery 1k in 3’30” / 3’40”

(on the track for controlling the speed)

(Specific marathon endurance workout)

Sun

50min easy

50min easy

6th Week

Mon

1 hr easy + 10 x 100m sprint uphill (max speed)

1 hr easy

Tue

1 hr 30min moderate-progressive pace

(3’30” > 3’20”) for about 26k

(Special extensive block)

1 hr 30min moderate-progressive pace

(3’30” > 3’20”) for about 26k

Wed

45min

45min

Thu

1 hr easy

1 hr easy

Fri

30min warm-up

20k alternating 1k fast

(2’58” / 3’02” pace) and

1k moderate (3’15” / 3’20” pace)

(Specific variated speed endurance)

Sat

1 hr easy

1 hr easy

Sun

1 hr / 1 hr 15min progressive running

(3’40” > 3’10” pace)

1 hr with easy variations of 30/45secs every 3min

7th Week

Mon

1 hr easy

1 hr easy

Tue

45min

45min

Wed

10min warm-up

34k progressive running

(10k at 3’25” / 3’20” + 10k at 3’15” + 10k at 3’12” + 4k max)

(Specific Long Marathon Endurance)

Thu

1 hr easy regeneration

Fri

50min

50min

Sat

1 hr + 12 x 100m sprint uphill (max speed)

1 hr easy

Sun

20min warm-up

4 x 5k at 3’08” / 3’04” pace (15’40” / 15’20”) + 1 x 3k fast (about 9min) recovery 1k in 3’35” about (or 3min jogging) (may be on the track for controlling the pace)

(Specific Marathon Endurance Workout)

8th Week

Mon

45min easy

45min easy

Tue

1 hr / 1 hr 15min with short variations

1 hr easy

Wed

1 hr easy

1 hr easy

Thu

10k at 3’20” pace +

12k at 3’06” / 3’10” pace

(Special mixed block)

10k at 3’20” pace +

6k at 2’55” / 3’ pace

Fri

45min

45min

Sat

1 hr easy

1 hr easy

Sun

1 hr easy + 15k at 3’10” > 3’05” pace

(Last extensive - mixed block)

1 hr easy

9th Week

Mon

1 hr 10min / 1 hr 20min fartlek with

15 x 1min fast recovery 1min 30s easy

Tue

1 hr easy

45min + 10 x 100m sprint uphill (max speed)

Wed

1 hr easy

40min

Thu

50min

Fri

40min (with 10min medium-speed)

Sat

30 / 40min very easy

Sun

MARATHON RACE

Average of kilometers per week :

1st week : 200 - 215

2nd week : 210 - 225

3rd week : 210 - 220

4th week : 215 - 225

5th week : 150 - 160

6th week : 215 - 225

7th week : 175 - 190

8th week : 210 - 220

9th week : 90 - 110 before the race

NOTE :

For different athletes the program may be the same, but it is necessary to pay attention to the speed.

For every minute of difference the pace for km must decrease of 2-3 secs about in every workout.

It’s also very important to pay attention to the recovery : RECOVER VERY WELL !!!

This is great stuff. Why can't we get more posts like these on Letsrun.com?

I'm sure that the ability in increasing the ability (forgive my repetition) in using fatty acids is very important, but one thing is to work for increasing this ability for very long run, another thing to increase this ability at fast marathon pace. I adviced one of the Italian winning twice World Championships in 100 km, Mario Fattore, and can say that training for ultramarathons is very simple, because you use ONLY FATTY ACIDS, forget carbohydrates. So, your problems regards other situations : to preserve good fitness for so long time (7-10 hours), to build tendons, ligaments and muscles for that type of duration, to build your mind. But no problems about the source of energy. Also if can seem strange, we need very less training for running 100km that for running a Marathon. For 100km, you have to develop your MAX AEROBIC LIPIDIC POWER, using types of fatty acids able to give more energy in the time unit, and the system of training starts from very slow speeds, at first developing the DURATION (one session every 2 weeks of 60-70 km, and some full marathon like.... speed), after the pace inside the same duration. So, always you use fatty acids, but increasing speed you become able to select the bests in order to develop your Aerobic Power.

Instead, when you want to increase your marathon at high level, YOU START FROM SPEED AT MARATHON PACE OR SIMILAR, and the first step is to use ALL YOUR CARBOHYDRATES in order to run still some minute in total depletion of sugar, for obliging muscular fibres in using THE MOST POWERFUL SOURCES OF FATTY ACIDS in order to maintain a similar speed. For example, if an athlete able running HM in 65.0 wants to prepare a marathon for 2:15 (really not difficult), he can run without big problems 28km at 3:15 pace (1:31), but after this goes to finish his reserves of glycogen, and his pace goes down dramatically. If he is able to run yet 3 km at 3:25 / 3:35 / 3:45, THESE LAST 3 KM ARE THE REAL TRAINING, because his fibres have to go to search some other hidden tank, under necessity. The next time, the same athlete becomes able running at 3:15 not 1:31, but 1:41 (for 31 km), so his long fast run must be extended to 34 km with the last 3 without glycogen.

So, in the first case we start with an empty glass that we go to fill with fatty acids, in the second case we start from a glass full of glycogen that we go to empty step by step, in order to fill the remaining part with qualified fatty acids.

When I speak about FAST LONG RUN, don't think that ALWAYS long run must be fast. If I go to prepare a Marathon, I use one specific long run every week, alternating two different ways :

a) DURATION - I don't have particular care about the pace. I start from 1:30, and in short time I move to 1:45 - 2:00 - 2:15 - 2:30. This training is at 70% of your HM pace (for ex., if you have a PB in HM of 70.20 that is a pace of 3:20 per km, and is the first time that you want to prepare a marathon, your pace for DURATION can start from 4:20. At the beginning of your training (may be 5 months before your Marathon), once a week you go for DURATION, in order to reach the ability in lasting the full marathon time, in short time, because your long run is very easy.

b) When you are able running, for example, 2:30, you can start to qualify the DURATION using a progression for the last 15:00, after 30:00, and so and so.

c) But, when you are able running 2:30 of DURATION, you start also your training of DISTANCE. Distance is a precise distance (forgive me again), that you go to run at even pace, about 90/95% of your HM pace (and this has to become your Marathon pace). So,. in the previous case, 95% of 3:20 is 3:30. You can start with 24km at 3:30, and the progression is TO EXTEND THE SAME PACE, running 26 and then 28 and so and so.

d) When you have both DURATION and DISTANCE in your program, the system is TO QUALIFY THE SPEED OF THE DURATION, and TO EXTEND THE DURATION OF THE PACE OF THE DISTANCE. You can alternate these 2 long runs, one in one week, the second in the next week. At the end, you become able to build a funnel, where your DURATION is 2:30 at 3:40, and your DISTANCE are 36 or 38 km at 3:30. When you are able to do this, be sure that you can run your full marathon at 3:30 finishing faster the last 10k, and, if you go for a HM one month before your Marathon (of course we can use, in every week, another specific workout of extension : so, no more than 2 workouts per week), your PB can move from 65 to 64 without big problems.

All the other days are for GENERAL VOLUME (many km slow or following your sensation, in any case easy) or for RECRUITMENT OF THE HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF FIBRES (using very short sprints uphill).

e) Regarding the fact of very long run, I want to remind you that, for every type of event and for every specialism, we have 2 different kinds of typologies : the FAST and the RESISTANT. This fact depends from their morphology and their physiology, and in part on their psychology too.

For example, how many strong athletes of 200m can be better on 300m, but are not able to run 400m very well ? And, if there was the official distance of 600m, are you sure that could be Borzakovskiy of Bungei the winner, or not, for example, the best Mutua ? Don't forget that the distances of official T & F are conventional, and every athlete has to adapt his training to them, but probably could have a better distance for his attitude that doesn't exist (remember when, in the past, you have in US, during indoor activity, distance like 500y - 600y - 1000y, and go to see who were the record holders).

For example, if you are an athlete able running 200m in 22.0 and 300m in 34.0, you are RESISTANT ; if you run 21.5 and 35.0, you are FAST. In the second case, forget that you can become a good 400m runner. In the first case. move to that distance soon, and in 3-4 years you become able to run full 400m at the same pace of your 300m before (in this case, 46.5) or very close.

This for explaining that there are runners that NEVER IN THEIR LIFE CAN BECOME BETTER USING LONG RUN. Why ? Because their internal anathomy (muscles and organs) is the anathomy of a sprinter, with more fast fibres and different nervous ability, and a different hormonal system, and different psychology, etc.

Also among animals there is the same situation : the lyon is a sprinter, and, if is not able to reach the gazelle after 400m, goes to rest awaiting the next victim...

So, don't generalize what I write. My phylosophy in training is to find the best solution for obtaining the best individual results, following the best personal attitudes. But, in the amateur field, everybody wants to do the event that he prefers, not the best for himself. And I suppose that this is right. So, if I see Alan Webb running one mile, and I meet him on an elevator during a meeting with a T-Shirt with written "MILE RUNNER", I tell him "For you is better to write 3 MILES RUNNER" (may be that he remembers this fact), because I think that 12:52 in 5k is better than 3:32 in 1500, and probably in the future 26:40 in 10k can be better than 12:52, and also in the last lap of 10k he can be the faster, in the last lap of 5k can win a medal, in the last 300m of 1500 of sure he has 5 athletes ahead him. So, my advice for TOP ATHLETES regards the way for reaching their best results, not what they prefer of like. But for all the other, I suppose that you must do what you like.

Great thread. Thanks.

Thank you vitas, I am glad you are enjoying it.

thanks for all the info, great thread

Good stuff, thanks.

After a Marathon, I give one week full rest, followed by one week of easy run, alternating days with 2 sessions of 40 / 50 min, and days with only one session lasting from 1 hr 20:00 to 1 hr 40:00. From the 3rd week, I put the circuits for rebuilding strength. This training of circuits lasts 8 weeks : during the first 3 weeks we increase the number of circuits, during the next 3 weeks we reduce recovery time between the circuits, during the last 2 weeks we increase the length of every part of the circuits. Examples :

First 3 weeks : starting from 6 circuits, then 8, then 10.

Circuit :

* 100m fast (flat course)

* 50m skipping (flat)

* 100m fast (uphill)

* 50m bounding (uphill)

* 100m fast (uphill)

* 50m heels to buttocks (uphill)

* 200m fast (uphill)

* 10 squat-jumps on the place

* 350m going down (downhill)

We use about 1 km, mixed, for the circuit. The gradient is between 8 and 10 %. Every test must be done at 90% of the max. effort, and there is continuity between tests and exercises. This circuit last about 4:30 / 5:00, depending on the gradient of the hill. Recovery is jogging coming back, so at the moment the total duration is about 50 min.

Next 3 weeks :

We use the same circuits (10 times), but we go to qualify the speed of recovery, that during last week is at fast speed. For example, if during the first period the average for every circuit is 4:30, at the end of the 6th week becomes 3:45 / 3:55.

Last 2 weeks :

We use 10 circuits, increasing the distance of every test to 150m, and the last to 300m. In this way, the distance of every circuit goes to 1,250m about, and the final total distance becomes 12.5 km instead 10.

During this period, the athlete has in his program one long run per week, increasing duration (from 2 hr to 2 hr 40 min, with the last 30 min fast), and one session for increasing Aerobic Power (intervals of 800m / 1000m / 1200m / 1500m / 2000m at a speed of 5-8% faster than Marathon Pace, recovery half distance of the test run at 80% of Marathon Pace, for a global volume of 20-25 km). All the other sessions are at moderate speed, with a volume of about 20 miles per day.

After this period, we go for the final 9 weeks (2 months) of SPECIFIC PREPARATION. We cancel circuits, but we put short sprints uphill (100m) also twice per week. The long run becomes more qualified (we go to alternate one week using DURATION (for example, 2 hr 30) at moderate intensity, and one week using DISTANCE at 98% of Marathon Pace, starting from 30-32-34-36-38 km), and we have another SPECIFIC MARATHON ENDURANCE TRAINING, with an evolution in total volume and in the length of the tests, at the same speed (2 % faster than Marathon Pace).

Example (Marathon runner of 2:10, 3:05 per km) :

* 8 x 2000 in 6:00 rec. 1 km in 3:30 (23 km)

* 6 x 3000 in 9:00 rec. 1 km in 3:30 (23 km)

* 4 x 5000 in 15:10 rec. 1 km in 3:30 (23 km)

* 3 x 7000 in 21:20 rec. 1 km in 3:30 (23 km)

* 4 x 5000 in 15:10 + 1 x 3000 in 8:45 rec. 1 km in 3:10

I also use 2 times a SPECIAL BLOCK, that is a day with a lot of km. faster than Marathon Pace, divided between the morning session and the session in afternoon. When I use this type of training, I need to be very easy the two previous days, and also the two next days, because is very important to recover very well after, and to be fresh before. Don't forget that we NEED TO DEVELOP SPECIFIC QUALITY, that is a quality of extension, but FAST. When body and mind are tired, is not possible to develop any kind of quality, and training becames damageous.

An example of special block, from Rita Jeptoo, before winning Boston (but before NY was better, but she had an injury) :

Morning : 10 km in 36:30 + 6 x 2000 (track) rec. 400m in 2:00, average 6:26 (km. 12 at 3:13, 10 at 3:38, 2 at 5:00)

Afternoon : 10 km in 38:40 + 20 km in 1:09:40 (20 km at 3:29, 10 km at 3:52).

Globally : 52 km (12 at 3:13 + 20 at 3:29 + 10 at 3:38 + 10 at 3:52 + 2 at 5:00). If the final goal is to run a Marathon at 3:20 (2:20:40), this means 12 km at 104% of Marathon Pace, 20 km at 95 %, 10 km at 91 %, 10km at 84% and 2 km at regeneration speed.

Thanks Fausto...

are your last two posts yours of more of Renato's theories? Did I miss the switch? I havn't had a chance to read the entire thread yet so sorry if I missed that part.

never mind... I got it.

I try to include information from recent threads where Renato talks about Marathon training. This one was the most recent and included interesting information about the technique of racing in mud:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1675991&page=0

I arrived yesterday to Italy from Kenya, where I read on the IAAF site about Ryan Hall. As I don't know well the guy, and his training system, I cannot say something precise about him. However, I can expound my opinion regarding relation HM / Marathon.

Half Marathon is strictly connected with the ability in 10000m, CAN BE connected, in the future, with the Marathon, but it isn't a real test for the full distance.

You can run HM at the speed of your Anaerobic Threshold, that can be about 4-5 mmol for athletes, well prepared, coming from shorter distances. That's means that, if you are able to use a good distribution of rhytm, more even possible, you can run without too much accumulation of lactate, being able to remove from your fibres IN REAL TIME the lactate that you produce. For a top specialist of 10000m, only increasing his mileage (and the length of intervals too) without reducing the speed, can be a very good preparation for a strong half. In my experience, for example, I coached Paul Kosgei to win, in the first HM of his life, WHM Ch of 2002, however he was not able, at that moment, to run consistantly longer than 25 km (2 years later he bettered the WR of 25k in 1:12:45). The same last year with Robert Kipchumba : he was able to prepare 59:27 in Rotterdam with 2 months of preparation, and the 2nd place in WRRCh in 20k, but this doesn't mean anything looking for Marathon, because his mentality is yet very far from a correct training for this event.

One thing is the ability running a fast HM PREPARING MARATHON : this is a very good mark of good shape and very good training. Other thing to suppose that you can run a very good marathon PREPARING HM : this is completely wrong.

So, I don't know if Hall has the attitude for running a top marathon or not. If yes, he needs time for moving, under psychological and metabolic point of view, to a correct training and interpretation of full marathon. If he wants to try that road, I can suggest to run a good (but not top) marathon in November, having the only goal to make an experience (looking for 2:10 / 2:11), also because can be interested, for him, running WHMCh in Udine on 14 OCT, and the best thing is to have 4-5 weeks between a top HM (prepared for HM....) and a Marathon, and a bigger Marathon at the end of March 2008, for having time to prepare Beijing for Olympic. But, in Osaka this year and in Beijing, we go to face a very bad situation, with temperature of 30/35 degrees, and humidity of 85/90 %. Those are not the best conditions for a not expert athlete. In those conditions, for example, I suppose that Kenyan athletes cannot be too much competitive.

On the other side, I can be sure that 59:43 can be compared, without any doubt, with a under 27:00 time in 10000m. My opinion is that Hall, looking to his palmarees in the past, can try to prepare a 10000m under 27:00 for WCh, running about 13:00 in 5000m. One thing that can be very positive for him is his ability in running alone : this is one of the most important attitudes for becoming a Marathon runner.

But US must have patience. Instead, I see always a lot of hurry, from media and fans, with your young top athletes, and this is the real main problem that American runners have to face. Before speaking of medals, give to your athletes time to grow. You cannot win without top international experience, and you can do it only using time, may be 3 years. Going to World Ch or Olympic, an athlete must be IN HIS WORLD, being AN ACTOR, NOT A SPECTATOR. Too many times, an excess of pressure provokes bad results, destroying self confidence for long time. Don't do this mistake : low profile is the best way for becoming a top champion.

From the thread entitled: Renato, can you post the training of Mubarak Hassan Shami?? 4/15/2007 9:39AM

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=1861050&thread=1860776

He just ran 2:07 in Paris. The conditions weren't that great either from what I hear. He also placed in the top 10 at world XC a few weeks back. Renato, can you talk about his training or post his schedule?

Thanks

Renato Canova RE: Renato, can you post the training of Mubarak Hassan Shami?? 4/15/2007 11:14AM - in reply to drillz Reply:

JANUARY

Mon, 1 : 1 hr moderate

Tue, 2 : a) 1 hr moderate

b) 1 hr with short variations of speed

Wed, 3 : a) 1 hr 10:00 progressive run

: b) 45:00 easy + 12 x 80m sprint climbing

Thu, 4 : a) 1 hr moderate

b) 40:00 easy + 15 x 30 sec. skipping fast

Fri, 5 : a) 30:00 easy + 6 circuits for strength

endurance, rec. 5:00

b) 1 hr 06:00 moderate

Sat, 6 : a) 1 hr 15:00 moderate

b) 1 hr easy + 30:00 of exer. for flexibility

Sun, 7 : 1:38:00 moderate (27k)

Mon, 8 : a) 1 hr 18:00 progressive run

b) 45:00 easy + 15 x 50m bounding

Tue, 9 : a) 30:00 easy + 6 times 6:00 fast rec. 2:00 easy

b) 1 hr easy

Wed, 10 : a) 1 hr 12:00 moderate

b) 47:00 easy + 16 x 80m sprint climbing

Thu, 11 : a) 30:00 easy + 12 km in 37:06 in Iten

b) 1 hr with short variations of speed

Fri, 12 : a) 1 hr moderate

b) 45:00 easy + 17 x 40 sec skipping fast

Sat, 13 : a) 25:00 warm-up + 15 x 600m in 1:42 rec. 200m

in 48.0 (totally 12 km on track in 37:33)

b) 1 hr easy

Sun, 14 : 1:44:00 moderate (29 k)

Mon, 15 : a) 1 hr 08:00 with short variations of speed

b) 46:00 easy + 10 x 100m sprint climbing

Tue, 16 : a) 33:00 warm-up + 7 circuits for strength

endurance, rec. 5:00

b) 48:00 easy

Wed, 17 : a) 45:00 easy

b) 47:00 easy

Thu, 18 : a) 48:00 moderate

b) 45:00 easy + stretching

Fri, 19 : a) 10 km in 33:54 + 5 x 1000 in 2:58 rec. 1:30

b) 10 km in 34:08 + 10 km in 30:36

Sat, 20 : a) 53:00 easy

b) 36:00 easy (little problem in left biceps)

Sun, 21 : Rest

Mon, 22 : a) 1 hr moderate

b) 1 hr easy

Tue, 23 : a) 1 hr 03:00 progressive run

b) 1 hr 06:00 with short variations of speed

Wed, 24 : a) 1 hr 22:00 at 3:25 p/k pace

b) 1 hr 03:00 moderate

Thu, 25 : a) 33:00 easy + 7 times 6:00 fast rec. 2:00 mod.

b) 48:00 easy + stretching

Fri, 26 : a) 1 hr 12:00 moderate

b) 53:00 progressive run

Sat, 27 : a) 20:00 easy + 16 km at 3:06 pace (49:41)

b) 48:00 with short variations of speed

Sun, 28 : 2 hr 02:00 moderate (34 km) in Iten

Mon, 29 : a) 1 hr 17:00 with short variations of speed

b) 44:00 easy + 5 km (track) in 14:41

Tue, 30 : a) 31:00 warm-up + 8 circuits for strength

endurance, rec. 5:00

b) 56:00 with short variations of speed

Wed, 31 : a) 1 hr 33:00 with last 30:00 very fast

b) 38:00 easy regeneration

FEBRUARY

Thu, 1 : a) 1 hr 16:00 moderate

b) 33:00 easy + 15 x 100m sprint climbing + 5k

in 14:36

Fri, 2 : a) 32:00 easy + 5 x 3000m rec. 600m (average

2:22) in 9:03 - 8:58 - 8:56 - 9:01 - 8:44

(Chepkoilel)

b) 1 hr moderate

Sat, 3 : a) 1 hr moderate

b) 47:00 easy + 15 times 45 sec skipping fast

Sun, 4 : 1 hr moderate + 18 km at 3:08 per km.

Mon, 5 : a) 1 hr with short variations of speed

b) 58:00 progressive run

Tue, 6 : a) 50:00 moderate

b) 44:00 moderate + travel from Eldama Ravine

to Nairobi

Wed, 7 : a) Travel Nairobi - Dubai - Ras el Khaimah

b) 42:00 easy regeneration

Thu, 8 : 47:00 easy

Fri, 9 : HM in Ras el Khaimah : 61:03 (NR)

Sat, 10 : a) Travel from Ras el Khaimah to Dubai - Nairobi

b) 36:00 regeneration

Sun, 11 : Travel Nairobi - Eldama Ravine + 54:00 easy

Mon, 12 : a) 1 hr moderate

b) 1 hr with short variations of speed

Tue, 13 : a) 1 hr 17:00 moderate

b) 44:00 easy + 17 x 100m sprint climbing

Wed, 14 : a) 26:00 easy + 5 times 4k rec. 1 k (average

3:40) in 12:08 - 12:11 - 12:05 - 11:54 - 12:04

b) 48:00 easy

Thu, 15 : a) 1 hr 17:00 with short variations of speed

b) 56:00 moderate + stretching

Fri, 16 : a) 45:00 easy

b) 47:00 easy

Sat, 17 : a) 1 hr 36:00 moderate

b) 33:00 easy + 8 circuits for strength

endurance, rec. 5:00

Sun, 18 : 2 hr 08:00 at personal sensation

Mon, 19 : a) 1 hr moderate

b) 58:00 moderate + 10 times 50m bounding

Tue, 20 : a) 45:00 easy

b) 45:00 easy + stretching

Wed, 21 : a) 48:00 with short variations

b) 32:00 easy + 8 x 80m sprint climbing

Thu, 22 : a) 10k in 33:38 + 6 x 2000m (track) rec. 2:00,

in 5:57 - 5:58 - 5:54 - 5:55 - 5:53 - 5:41

b) 10k in 33:44 + 15 km in 46:22

Fri, 23 : a) 45:00 easy

b) 42:00 easy + diagonals

Sat, 24 : a) 1 hr 03:00 with short variations of speed

b) 48:00 moderate

Sun, 25 : 2 hr 18:00 progressive run (39 km)

From Mon, 26, one week of volume :

Mon, 26 : a) 1 hr 32:00 moderate (26k, av. 3:23)

b) 1 hr 08:00 progressive run (20k)

Tue, 27 : a) 33:00 easy + 4 x 5k (road) in 15:20 average,

rec. 1 km in 3:45 average (8k + 23k = 31k)

b) 1 hr moderate (16k)

Wed, 28 : a) 1 hr 22:00 with short variations of speed

(23k)

b) 57:00 moderate + 15 x 100m sprint climbing

(14.5k + 1.5k = 16k)

MARCH

Thu, 1 : a) 1 hr 26:00 progressive run (25k)

b) 34:00 moderate + 5k in 14:58 + 32:00

moderate + 5 x 300m hard climbing, rec.

3:00 (24k)

Fri, 2 : a) 1 hr with short variations of speed (17k)

b) 1 hr 02:00 moderate (17k)

Sat, 3 : a) 10k in 34:12 + 7 x 2000m rec. 2:00 in 5:53 -

5:55 - 5:58 - 5:54 - 5:57 - 5:58 - 5:46

(24k)

b) 10k in 34:44 + 15k in 46:38 (25k)

Sun, 4 : 35k in 2:03:20

Week of volume : 299 km

Mon, 5 : a) 1 hr with short variations of speed

b) 45:00 regeneration

Tue, 6 : a) 1 hr easy

b) 40:00 easy + 10 x 100m sprint climbing

Wed, 7 : a) 1 hr easy + 5 km in 14:33

b) 1 hr moderate

Thu, 8 : a) 1 hr easy + travel to Nairobi

b) 50:00 easy

Fri, 9 : a) Travel to Paris

b) 55:00 easy

Sat, 10 : a) 45:00 easy

b) 48:00 easy

Sun, 11 : PARIS HM (60:47, NR) position 5th

Mon, 12 : a) Travel Paris - Nairobi

b) 45:00 regeneration

Tue, 13 : a) Travel Nairobi - Eldama Ravine

b) 1 hr 08:00 moderate

Wed, 14 : a) 1 hr 15:00 progressive run

b) 1 hr with short variations of speed

Thu, 15 : a) 30:00 easy + 7k + 6k + 5k + 4k + 3k, rec.

3:00 jogging, in 21:44 - 18:06 - 14:57 -

11:44 - 8:41

b) 45:00 regeneration

Fri, 16 : a) 1 hr easy

b) 57:00 easy

Sat, 17 : a) 1 hr with short variations of speed

b) 48:00 easy + 12 x 80m sprint climbing

Sun, 18 : 44:00 moderate + 12k in 37:09

Mon, 19 : a) 1 hr 06:00 moderate

b) 52:00 easy

Tue, 20 : 38k in 2:09:10 (hilly course)

Wed, 21 : a) 1 hr 03:00 moderate

b) 56:00 with short variations of speed

Thu, 22 : a) Travel Eldama Ravine - Nairobi - Mombasa

b) 47:00 easy

Fri, 23 : a) 52:00 easy

b) 44:00 easy

Sat, 24 : MOMBASA : WCCCh (position 7th)

Sun, 25 : Travel Mombasa - Nairobi (rest)

Mon, 26 : a) Travel Nairobi - Eldama Ravine

b) 1 hr moderate

Tue, 27 : a) 1 hr 12:00 moderate

b) 1 hr with short variations of speed

Wed, 28 : a) 1 hr 08:00 progressive run

b) 54:00 easy regeneration

Thu, 29 : a) 28:00 easy + 4 x 5k rec. 1k in 14:53 / 3:33 - 15:03 / 3:44 - 15:15 / 4:02 - 15:44 (tired

after Mombasa)

b) 36:00 easy regeneration

Fri, 30 : a) 1 hr 08:00 moderate

b) 1 hr 02:00 with short variations of speed

Sat, 31 : a) 1 hr 18:00 progressive run

b) 47:00 easy + 13 x 100m sprint climbing

APRIL

Sun, 1 : a) 44:00 easy + 6k at 3:08

b) 1 hr moderate

Mon, 2 : 18:00 warm-up + 35k (Ziwa, going up with

300m of difference in altitude, from 2,000

to 2,300m) in 1:58:24 (last 5k in 18:44,

still tired in his legs)

Note : going back home he had a car accident, with

strong impact between his chest and the

steering. Strong pain breathing. I feared a

rip infraction (fortunately it wasn't and the

pain was due to the impact only)

Tue, 3 : Rest

Wed, 4 : 43:00 easy

Thu, 5 : 48:00 easy

Fri, 6 : 1 hr 02:00 easy

Sat, 7 : a) 1 hr 08:00 progressive run

b) 48:00 easy + 6k in 18:41

Sun, 8 : 1 hr 41:00 moderate (28k)

Mon, 9 : a) 1 hr 03:00 moderate

b) 1 hr 06:00 with short variations of speed

Tue, 10 : a) 42:00 easy + 5k in 15:08

b) 48:00 easy + 5k in 14:46

Wed, 11 : a) 1 hr 16:00 moderate

b) Travel Eldama Ravine - Nairobi

Thu, 12 : a) Travel Nairobi - Paris

b) 40:00 easy

Fri, 13 : a) 37:00 easy

b) 36:00 easy

Sat, 14 : 44:00 easy

Sun, 15 : PARIS MARATHON : 2:17:19 (NR) winner

Moderate = ?

moderate= medium pace.

Fausto Coppiright wrote:

moderate= medium pace.

Which is what in this case? I want pace per mile not just some description that can vary. Anyone figure out the hard numbers?