Thoughts on Kettlebells(Runningart2004??)

Peanut Macaroni wrote:

KB aren't a crap tool and I am not an insecure trainer. Every piece of equipment has its place and I think KB are great as they will help correct imbalances when other exercises fail to do so.

Yup. My friend's dad was a strong man in the 80's.

I remember him clearly saying that the best workout can be gotten with a fallen tree, or a (BIG) rock.. and the worst is anything with an iron bar.. haha

There's a definite difference between strength, and that "bodybuilder body"

This has been a very informative conversation by everyone including Peanut Macaroni. I will read up on the topic some more and one gym near us has kettlebells. Thank you for the websites too.

There were barely strongmen around in the '80s, maybe just on that show 'World's Strongest Man', so maybe your dad's friend was on that. Not too convincing.I see Kettlebells were used by the Russians, Turks, famous strongmen. A lot of gyms are getting them. In fact, one gym has some real budget ones I've seen, I would not want to try those.

Millers. wrote:

Peanut Macaroni wrote:

KB aren't a crap tool and I am not an insecure trainer. Every piece of equipment has its place and I think KB are great as they will help correct imbalances when other exercises fail to do so.

Yup. My friend's dad was a strong man in the 80's.

I remember him clearly saying that the best workout can be gotten with a fallen tree, or a (BIG) rock.. and the worst is anything with an iron bar.. haha

There's a definite difference between strength, and that "bodybuilder body"

I now think Peanut Macaroni is learned on the subject from what has been said but I can see people being apprehensive about buying Kettlebells because just one can set you back $75 with postage and sooner or later, you might want to buy another.

FWIW- The last 3 posts were not posted by me- the 'real' original poster. I have no idea why someone would do that under the name I use. Very weird. I do not have any gyms with kettlebells and if I did I really would not care if they had cheap ones.

Thanks Peanut for your advice.

Runningart,

I have tried traditional weight training "under the iron". I think heavy weight training created more problems then it was worth. Whats your thoughts on functional strength training? Do you really think kettlebells are crap? I have heard lots of athlete's have success with them. Just have not heard runners talk about them.

They have their purpose (dynamic cardio) but if you want strength, you lift. If you want functional strength, lift explosively.

Go ask the gold medal winners in Olympic Lifting about their training or the record holders in powerlifting about their training. Or for that matter go take a look at your college and professional football teams. I don't think you'll see kettlebells in their day to day training. You may see them from time to time, again as a form of cardio or conditioning...but not as a strength tool.

KB's can give you a different stimilus, which can produce results....but if you've never really lifted before then your time would be best spend under the iron. If you're not improving under the iron then your program needs changing. Most people stay with the same general exercises in the same rep range. Go do some singles or triples and I bet you will get stronger.

And no, not every piece of eqiupment has a use...unless that use is to sell you something.

Again, use them for cardio, not strength.

The term "functional strength" has been bastardized to hell in the fitness industry. So much so that people think doing lifts on a damn bosu ball or swinging crap around is functional.

You know what the two most functional exercises are? The squat and deadlift. Anytime you pick something up off the ground you are doing a deadlift. Anytime you sit down and up from a chair you are doing a squat. With all of my elderly clients we do squats. A couple months later they are getting up and down with fewer problems. That's an increase in functional strength.

Functional strength for an athlete is strength in the specific range of motion for that sport. With running you have opposing left/arm movements. So, step ups with an opposite hip extension prove beneficial as do lunges with a cable row. BUT, you need general strength before you need functional or specific strength. So general strength lays the foundation for functional or specific strength.

Here's an idea for increasing strength that has stagnated:

Clusters: Perform one rep at a weight you could lift 2-3 times. You can also lessen the intensity by performing 2 reps at a weight you could lift 4-5 times. Perform 5 clusters with minimal rest (5 seconds, 10 seconds, whatever you need, experiment)

So a set of clusters would look like 1-1-1-1-1 or 2-2-2-2-2. If you can easily get to the 5th rep then either your rest is too long or your weight too light.

Do 3 sets of clusters for each exercise, 4-5 exercises. 3 minutes between sets.

Alan

great post

Thanks Alan,

But do you really think doing sets of low reps is beneficial for me? I train to run marathons. My main goals with lifting are 1)injury prevention and 2) mass maintenance. By mass maintenance I mean to maintain muscle mass. Being that I always felt the over-emphasis(not a bad thing)on running has always left me very scrawny, I would much rather be lean with a little more muscle mass than ne light and look "fat-skinny" like a lot of marathoners I know.

I guess I can not really see the relation behind doing sets of heavy deads for a marathon runner. From my limited understanding of Kettlebells it is more than just a cardio conditioning protocol. Of course I see that's what is it marketed as - "all around, fat-burneer, strength development one stop shop fitness program". It is designed to stimulate strength, strength endurance, flexibility, balance and coordination. My intentions were not to take it to the "CorssFit" level but rather intergreate with my running. Develope a plan to cater to my weakneses and also structure it around my running.

Again my understanding both on kettlebells and weight training is limited which is why I am asking you. Thanks for your replies.

dsfsds wrote:

great post

Nope, there was nothing interesting or original in his post. Alan either regurgitates crap anyone can pull of the internet and pretends he came with a great idea, or he makes shit up. He is the flagpole willy of financial advice: he has declared himself an expert in certain areas, and that is all it takes to convince some people that one is expert. Just tell them you are, and they will buy it.

I appreciate his advice.

Thanks

Sorry, not quite wrote:

Nope, there was nothing interesting or original in his post. Alan either regurgitates crap anyone can pull of the internet and pretends he came with a great idea, or he makes shit up. He is the flagpole willy of financial advice: he has declared himself an expert in certain areas, and that is all it takes to convince some people that one is expert. Just tell them you are, and they will buy it.

sorry, i missed the part where he claimed these were new or original ideas. everything in that post is completely true, and since it is abundantly obvious that most runners have no clue as to what muscular strength is or how you develop it, his posts SHOULD be quite helpful to a lot of people on this board. he is absolutely on target regarding kettlebells - they can add some nice variety to a workout from a conditioning standpoint, but the fact of the matter is if your goal is developing strength or power, traditional weight training, olympic lifts, and plyos are more effective.

95% of new training equipment or "functional" exercises that are being marketed are designed to appeal to people who don't want to lift heavy things to get strong, but still want to feel like they are getting some "cutting edge" workout. it's been that way since the first "ab-lounger" or Bosu ball hit the scene. people are always looking for the quick fix but don't want to do things that are difficult to get results. the bottom line is, in order to get stronger (i'm talking about actual muscular contraction force, not the nebulous runners' definition of "strength", which as far as i can tell really means endurance...) you have to lift progressively heavier weights. and since the way our muscles move our joints and the way they adapt to resistance has not changed, neither will the basic principles of strength training, regardless of whatever the latest "revolutionary" product that appears.

Kettleballs are of zero benefit to runners, would develop you like a weightlifter and keep you from reaching your running potential.

When I was in high school I ran a 220 a few times carrying 15 pound hand weights in each hand, weighing 140 pounds. They were tough. Once I ran a 1/4 on a dirt track with a friend timing me in 59.5 seconds, which was really really tough. I could run 52 seconds at the time, and carrying the hand weights was much harder. I was just about totally anerobic 1/2 way around and still had an equal distance to run.

If you want to try weights for running, try that, or wear a 25 pound weighted vest.

Or better yet, just run up some hills.

Running with weights in your hands or on your ankles for that matter is a good way to a) hurt your back and/or b) mess up your form. Don't confuse effort with results. I might say the same about running with a weighted vest...but it has some value in yet another form of dynamic cardio.

There are many tricks and tools out there. The best is usually the simpliest. Especially when talking about athletes who do very little if any strength training.

No, runners shouldn't do heavy deads or olympic lifts either as that will overstress the low back.

The problem with these 'catchy' tools (kettlebells, crossfit, fake functional training) is that to get a decent stimilus you have to do a lot of volume and a runner doesn't want that with his strength training. A runner is doing enough training volume with his running. Adding signifcantly to that volume will lead to too much overload....and that is how runners have bad experiences with weight lifting.

If you want to reduce injury risk or maintain mass K.I.S.S and D.D.S.S....Keep It Simple Stupid and Don't Do Dumb Shit.

1 warmup set, 1 work set of the following for 10 reps to start then progress down to 4-6 and stay in that range 1-2 times a week.

1. Squat to just below parallel: calves lick hamstrings

*start just with the bar to learn form then go from there. Most runners won't be able to do a proper squat at first due to inflexibility and weakness. Most will have a tendancy to lift up their heels.

2. Bench Press: Prefer dumbbells as there's less shoulder risk and more functionality.

3. Leg Curl: Prefer prone leg curl as the strength curve is better than the seated.

4. Pullups or assisted pullups: if you do not have an assisted machine use a resistance band.

That's it.

At first you will adapt better by doing moderate reps as you will gain strength quickly through repetitive motion. Then as you progress you will need a stress of higher intensity to produce better results. You will gain strength mostly through neuromuscular adaptation since you won't be gaining any size.

Give me 20 distance runners. I'll put 10 of them on a kettlebell routine and 10 on a strength routine like the above. In a year my strength group will be stronger, have more muscular endurance, better flexibility, etc.

Alan

How much have you improved since lifting the weights.

Thanks again. From the way some of the KB goers make it sound(I have done a little research), it's a great strength builder. I don't know much about it which is why I am asking runners if they have tried it. The more research i do the more it looks like a receipt for injury. I was never really much of a fan of high rep stuff and KB seems to thrive on high rep. As far as functional goes, the lifts with KB are no different than with barbells or dumbells. They utlize dead lifts, squats, military press and also olypimic lifts like snatch, cleans etc...

Alan,

Funny you mention time. That is my main motivation for thinking of starting KB. If I join the gym it's a 10 minuted drive both ways, changing, at least 45 minutes I would spend working out. X that by 2 days per weel and I'm well over 2.5 hours per week. Even very experienced KB goers preach no more than 20 minutes at a clip and 3 times per week. The way I was thniking I can do a quick 20 minute session in my back yard after an easy run 3x per week. The thing is it's 20 minutes of fury, no breaks btw sets or anything. Stright military style workouts.

I'm still still on the fence with it. I do not belong to a gym now, I have been working out at home. Like I said it's not effective(I am board as hell of lunges, pushups and dumbell rows). The investment btw year membership to the gym and KB start up kit would be about the same. I guess most runners would advise the gym membership. The KB start up kit is non-refundable so if I dive in and hate it I just wasted a lot of money. I was hoping to find some runners here that have actually gave it an honest go.

If you're going to run, then run.

eli wallach wrote:

If you're going to run, then run.

I do run, quite a bit. I am not one of those runners who beleives in replacing running with cross training but I do beleive lifting allows me to remain injury free. Running has caused imbalances in my muscles in the past. I am a male runner 130 lbs, I natually lack strength. I guess most males have a natual strength base to support high mileage so they don't have to worry. Me, girls squat more then me(honest truth).

Harry Hood (the real Harry) wrote:

I do run, quite a bit. I am not one of those runners who beleives in replacing running with cross training but I do beleive lifting allows me to remain injury free. Running has caused imbalances in my muscles in the past. I am a male runner 130 lbs, I natually lack strength. I guess most males have a natual strength base to support high mileage so they don't have to worry. Me, girls squat more then me(honest truth).

Have you tried single leg squats?

A few answers:

1. I'm no longer a competitive runner. My marathon PR came at a time when I was doing some form of resistance training twice a week...2:32:45...though that was a couple years ago.

2. If you're pushed for time and can't get to a gym then do the following bodyweight circuit:

1. Jump Squats for height. Don't just do it for endurance, get down and power up!. After 10-15 you'll be spent.

*Alternative: Split Jumps on a 12-24in box.

2. Single Leg Squats ie: "pistols".

*Alternative: Single Leg Deadlift with foot on a step.

3. Pushups

*Alternative: Single leg pushups, power pushups, pushups with hands on a box or med ball, pushups with feet on a stability ball...there are hundreds of ways to make pushups hard enough so that you fail around 10-15.

4. Pullups: Pretty simple. Full range of motion. Dead hang pullup until hands meet shoulder level. If you can do 5 of these full range I'll be impressed. Control the negative. Slow down on the way down.

That's it. 1-2 sets of the above 1-2 times a week.

Alan