who knows wrote:
If he does, I would bet hes on drugs
...and if doesn't he's not? f***ing moron
who knows wrote:
If he does, I would bet hes on drugs
...and if doesn't he's not? f***ing moron
forst wrote:
who knows wrote:If he does, I would bet hes on drugs
...and if doesn't he's not? f***ing moron
Why is this a moronic statement?
The last time the 800/1500 double was completed at world level by a male athlete was Peter Snell in 1964. Of course Ramzi did it in 05 but we all know what was going on there. These two events are simply too hard to win now (especially the 800m because of the depth of talent and the 3 round system) I don't think anyone can do it without being on drugs either.
And no, this doesn't mean if he doesn't do the double (and presumably just wins the 1500) that he is automatically clean. But a) he hasn't failed any drug tests as far as I know and b) I don't think he is on drugs anyway.
YOU moron.
YOU GUYS ARE F***ING STUPID. HE'S ONLY IN THE 1500!
Well, I am not "F***ing stupid" because I know he is only running the 1500. The whole thread is basically conceptual and based on the idea that someone could win the 800/1500 double (Kiprop is obviously the only candidate for that at the moment). So thats what the discussion is about.
You anaemic masturbator
the double will probably only come into it when he has an outstanding 800 time
at present he has a 1'43.17, just behind kaki, but that guy went 1'42.69 last year & borza/greg went 1'42.79 also, so he's still a way behind these guys presently
it woud not really be worth going for until he runs something like a 1'42-flat ( which he can aim for next year with no globals to worry about - just race on circuit )
his 800 tactics are a bit poor ( fast races ), giving up too much between 400 - 600 & then trying to reel them in
i have a sneaky feeling though, that next year, he might just skip the 1'42s altogether & go into the 1'41s directly if he follows the pace hard to 600m
No, the double will never come. It is just too hard in this day and age if an athlete is clean. It's not even the physical side which is hardest to overcome - it's the luck and circumstance which has to accompany the physical excellence. The three round system in the 800m is SO brutal, it doesn't even matter if you are a 1.42 guy - you are no certainty to even make the final. Just ask Yousef Kamel who I saw run 1.43.11 in person at Zurich and 6 weeks later not even make it past the first round in the Olympics (which I also saw in person). Just ask Yuriy Borzakovskiy or Abubaker Kaki who both ran 1.42 before Beijing and who also didnt make the final. When Ramzi did that double he was so incredibly lucky that the 800m final went the only way in which he could possibly win it (52.8 at 400m). Of course he also needed drugs to overcome the fatigue of three 1500m races and a 1.46 first round, 1.44 semi-final in the preceding eight days.
My point is, it won't matter how fast he gets over 800 meters, because to get there clean he is going to have to sacrifice a part of what makes him so good over 1500m to get to this level in the 800 meters. Kiprop is the best 1500m in the world right now, but he is not that far ahead and there will always be guys coming for him.
Kiprop is not a 1.42 low 800 meter runner and most certainly not a 1.41 runner. Considering we have not seen a sub 1.42 in 12 years now (even with VERY fast 400m/800m guys like Bungei, Kipketer, Bucher and Borza) I dont know where you get that from. To run 1.41 you must be capable of running 1.13 for a 600m time trialling because you need to be able to run 1.15 in race to run those sorts of times. Kiprop is a 1.42.7 candidate at best who has the ability to run 3.45 high, 3.46 low for the mile - similar to Steve Cram but maybe with a slightly higher potential in the mile because of maybe a slightly better natural talent.
nonsense
the 800/1500 double is far from impossible
go check out the winning 800 times since '96 - that's ?9 globals & hardly any have dipped into 1'43 territory - they are invariably tactical races & a ramzi double is easily contemplable by a 1'43/3'29 - 3'30 guy
3 rounds, including a 1'46 heat & then a 1'44 semi is going to hurt all the guys, but they'll survive
the konchellah example is absurd - he went out in an initial heat - that must mean he was ill/injured at line-up - how on earth woudn't a 1'42 guy not get thru a dersisory 1'46 heat ?!
as for kaki & borza, they both said they had food-poisoning in peking - if you don't believe it, how does kaki a 1'42 guy go out in a heat & borza who's proved his rounds-ability by actually winning it also go out ?!
asbel doesn't have to sacrifice any 1500 ability to be competitive over 800 - he can run the 800 off his 1500 ability
as for asbel not being a low-1'42 guy, i suggest you go watch that doha race against kaki - wabbit went thru in 50.04 & asbel was ~ 8m behind in likely 51-flat & then at 600 in ~77s - 1s slower at both check-marks than optimal & compounded that by allowing 2 guys to charge past him on backstretch
properly run race that day & he wouda been no worse than a 1'42.5 - in his opener - he can use that as a base time for next year
as for no 1'41 in 12y - kip had malaria in '98 & never was same speed-merchant again ( that's why no 1'41s this millenium ) - the other guys weren't in his league - bungei, borza & bucher ran low/mid 1'42s - rightfully their limit
3:32 at 5000 feet at the trials is pretty impressive!
1) No Koncellah was not ill/injured in Athens, he was just in a deep heat that wasn't quick at the bell and was out run. This is what happens at a global level in the mens 800 meters. Just because you can run 1.43 in a paced race, doesn't necessarily mean at all that you can run 1.46-47 off a 55 first lap, any better than an array of slightly less talented runners with slower PR's. Why is this absurd? A good example of this at the 1500m level is Daniel Kipchirchir Komen. When races are tactical (like heats and semis are at OG,WC level) PR's are out the door.
2) Why were Borza and Kaki so bad in Beijing? Well, I am sure both would love to contend they had food poisoning and maybe they did (I never heard anything about this - got any evidence of that?). How about in Kaki's case he just raced far too much, far too early (1.42.69 beginning of June and for some reason bothering to run WJ's) and by the time he got to Beijing he was just toasted. THAT is more likely. As for Borza? - Mate, everyone is human. Borza had a great run on a global level for a long time (we forget he has been great since 2000 when he was an Olympic finalist) and after years of being at the top and the training it takes to be there, he is just not the same guy he used to be. Okay, he ran 1.42.7 in Monaco before Beijing, but that was obviously his season pinnacle and 5 weeks is a long time in athletics. In any case, its not like he ran poorly - he was 3rd in an Olympic semi - he was just beaten by two hungrier athletes - the eventual winner Bungei and Yeimar Lopez who ran 1.43.11 that year. By the way, another example of how tough it is to progress through the rounds in the 800m for you.
3) "Ventolin", it is quite obvious from your posts that you have knowledge of this sport but purely on a statistical level and not really a practical one. Just because Kiprop runs 1.43 low off 51.XX, doesnt mean he is running a second faster at the finish if he runs a second faster in the first lap. Your claim makes sense THEORETICALLY, not PRACTICALLY. The way Kiprop runs makes total sense because of his massive aerobic advantage when running the 800 meters. At that unbelievably high level of running, a second too fast in the first lap (for any of those guys depending on their physical makeups) can make massive differences in the rest of the way the race pans out.
I tell you what, since you are so certain that he will run 1.41 - lets remember this little argument here 28/07/2009, and see what happens in the next 3-4 years (this will be his track lifespan just like Alex Kipchirchir, Ngeny, Daniel Kip Komen etc etc) Then we will see who really knows what they are talking about.
Ramadan Sulieman Twingehummad wrote:1) No Koncellah was not ill/injured in Athens, he was just in a deep heat that wasn't quick at the bell and was out run. This is what happens at a global level in the mens 800 meters. Just because you can run 1.43 in a paced race, doesn't necessarily mean at all that you can run 1.46-47 off a 55 first lap, any better than an array of slightly less talented runners with slower PR's. Why is this absurd?
you are talking drivel
greg came 5th in the final in 1'44.95
A good example of this at the 1500m level is Daniel Kipchirchir Komen. When races are tactical (like heats and semis are at OG,WC level) PR's are out the door
he proved tactically aware enough twice, to get thru heats to place 2nd in indoor 1500 WC - don't tell me, they gifted him a place in final both times ?!
2) Why were Borza and Kaki so bad in Beijing? Well, I am sure both would love to contend they had food poisoning and maybe they did (I never heard anything about this - got any evidence of that?).
then i suggest you do a yahoo search
How about in Kaki's case he just raced far too much, far too early (1.42.69 beginning of June and for some reason bothering to run WJ's) and by the time he got to Beijing he was just toasted.
list how many races he ran prior
he came last in his semi in 1'49.19 after running 1'46.98 in his heat
if you seriously believe that dropping 2+s to a paltry 1'49 was down to "burn-out" & not illness, then you know nothing about this sport
even if he was "burn
THAT is more likely. As for Borza? - Mate, everyone is human. Borza had a great run on a global level for a long time (we forget he has been great since 2000 when he was an Olympic finalist) and after years of being at the top and the training it takes to be there, he is just not the same guy he used to be. Okay, he ran 1.42.7 in Monaco before Beijing
your argument ends there - 1'42.7 & reigning champ & silvers at other globals
not the same guy ?
his pb is only slightly faster at 1'42.4
everyone but their grandma had borza favorite for gold after that 1'42.7 - super speed & the experience
but that was obviously his season pinnacle and 5 weeks is a long time in athletics. In any case, its not like he ran poorly
nonsense - he was aiming to peak for the global & coming 3rd & out in a semi is running poorly when you get outkicked by bungei in a slow race
he was 3rd in an Olympic semi - he was just beaten by two hungrier athletes - the eventual winner Bungei and Yeimar Lopez who ran 1.43.11 that year. By the way, another example of how tough it is to progress through the rounds in the 800m for you
bungei - a guy who he's beaten in virtually every slow race they have ever run
3) "Ventolin", it is quite obvious from your posts that you have knowledge of this sport but purely on a statistical level and not really a practical one. Just because Kiprop runs 1.43 low off 51.XX, doesnt mean he is running a second faster at the finish if he runs a second faster in the first lap.
eh ?
who said 1s faster at bell & 1s faster at end ?
learn to read
1 said with 51s pace, 1s faster at bell at 50s & maintained well at 600m then he can look at nearer 1/2s faster at the end
quicker than 50s, the 1st lap is probably approaching his 400pb too closely to use same method
Your claim makes sense THEORETICALLY, not PRACTICALLY. The way Kiprop runs makes total sense because of his massive aerobic advantage when running the 800 meters. At that unbelievably high level of running, a second too fast in the first lap (for any of those guys depending on their physical makeups) can make massive differences in the rest of the way the race pans out
see above
I tell you what, since you are so certain that he will run 1.41 - lets remember this little argument here 28/07/2009, and see what happens in the next 3-4 years (this will be his track lifespan just like Alex Kipchirchir, Ngeny, Daniel Kip Komen etc etc) Then we will see who really knows what they are talking about.
no problem
however, this guy is extremely articulate & from that i gather significantly smarter than those others - he can have a long career
ventolin wrote:
Ramadan Sulieman Twingehummad wrote:1) No Koncellah was not ill/injured in Athens, he was just in a deep heat that wasn't quick at the bell and was out run. This is what happens at a global level in the mens 800 meters. Just because you can run 1.43 in a paced race, doesn't necessarily mean at all that you can run 1.46-47 off a 55 first lap, any better than an array of slightly less talented runners with slower PR's. Why is this absurd?you are talking drivel
greg came 5th in the final in 1'44.95
A good example of this at the 1500m level is Daniel Kipchirchir Komen. When races are tactical (like heats and semis are at OG,WC level) PR's are out the door
he proved tactically aware enough twice, to get thru heats to place 2nd in indoor 1500 WC - don't tell me, they gifted him a place in final both times ?!
2) Why were Borza and Kaki so bad in Beijing? Well, I am sure both would love to contend they had food poisoning and maybe they did (I never heard anything about this - got any evidence of that?).
then i suggest you do a yahoo search
How about in Kaki's case he just raced far too much, far too early (1.42.69 beginning of June and for some reason bothering to run WJ's) and by the time he got to Beijing he was just toasted.
list how many races he ran prior
he came last in his semi in 1'49.19 after running 1'46.98 in his heat
if you seriously believe that dropping 2+s to a paltry 1'49 was down to "burn-out" & not illness, then you know nothing about this sport
even if he was "burn
THAT is more likely. As for Borza? - Mate, everyone is human. Borza had a great run on a global level for a long time (we forget he has been great since 2000 when he was an Olympic finalist) and after years of being at the top and the training it takes to be there, he is just not the same guy he used to be. Okay, he ran 1.42.7 in Monaco before Beijing
your argument ends there - 1'42.7 & reigning champ & silvers at other globals
not the same guy ?
his pb is only slightly faster at 1'42.4
everyone but their grandma had borza favorite for gold after that 1'42.7 - super speed & the experience
but that was obviously his season pinnacle and 5 weeks is a long time in athletics. In any case, its not like he ran poorly
nonsense - he was aiming to peak for the global & coming 3rd & out in a semi is running poorly when you get outkicked by bungei in a slow race
he was 3rd in an Olympic semi - he was just beaten by two hungrier athletes - the eventual winner Bungei and Yeimar Lopez who ran 1.43.11 that year. By the way, another example of how tough it is to progress through the rounds in the 800m for you
bungei - a guy who he's beaten in virtually every slow race they have ever run
3) "Ventolin", it is quite obvious from your posts that you have knowledge of this sport but purely on a statistical level and not really a practical one. Just because Kiprop runs 1.43 low off 51.XX, doesnt mean he is running a second faster at the finish if he runs a second faster in the first lap.
eh ?
who said 1s faster at bell & 1s faster at end ?
learn to read
1 said with 51s pace, 1s faster at bell at 50s & maintained well at 600m then he can look at nearer 1/2s faster at the end
quicker than 50s, the 1st lap is probably approaching his 400pb too closely to use same method
Your claim makes sense THEORETICALLY, not PRACTICALLY. The way Kiprop runs makes total sense because of his massive aerobic advantage when running the 800 meters. At that unbelievably high level of running, a second too fast in the first lap (for any of those guys depending on their physical makeups) can make massive differences in the rest of the way the race pans out
see above
I tell you what, since you are so certain that he will run 1.41 - lets remember this little argument here 28/07/2009, and see what happens in the next 3-4 years (this will be his track lifespan just like Alex Kipchirchir, Ngeny, Daniel Kip Komen etc etc) Then we will see who really knows what they are talking about.
no problem
however, this guy is extremely articulate & from that i gather significantly smarter than those others - he can have a long career
You´re doing exactly what the above poster is accusing you of: trying to prove everything with statistics.
I watched Kaki train several times during last summer (Kaki and his training group on several occasions lived and trained in Sollentuna just north of Stockholm, Sweden) and he certainly wasn´t in the same shape just before the Olympics as he was early in the summer. I watched him run a session of 4x400m two seconds slower average than he had run exactly the same session two months earlier.
the guy runs 1'42.6 early season & is completely out of shape by august ???that is horseshiti'll go with confirmed news :http://www.universalsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=105551&SPID=13055&DB_OEM_ID=23000&ATCLID=3718817
After victories at the World Junior Championships and Ostrava Grand Prix, he went to the Olympics as a prohibitive gold medal favorite. But Kaki made the mistake of drinking the tap water in Beijing and wound up sick and weakened. That listlessness showed in an eighth-place semifinal run
Ramadan Sulieman Twingehummad wrote:
1) No Koncellah was not ill/injured in Athens, he was just in a deep heat that wasn't quick at the bell and was out run. This is what happens at a global level in the mens 800 meters. Just because you can run 1.43 in a paced race, doesn't necessarily mean at all that you can run 1.46-47 off a 55 first lap, any better than an array of slightly less talented runners with slower PR's. Why is this absurd? A good example of this at the 1500m level is Daniel Kipchirchir Komen. When races are tactical (like heats and semis are at OG,WC level) PR's are out the door.
2) Why were Borza and Kaki so bad in Beijing? Well, I am sure both would love to contend they had food poisoning and maybe they did (I never heard anything about this - got any evidence of that?). How about in Kaki's case he just raced far too much, far too early (1.42.69 beginning of June and for some reason bothering to run WJ's) and by the time he got to Beijing he was just toasted. THAT is more likely. As for Borza? - Mate, everyone is human. Borza had a great run on a global level for a long time (we forget he has been great since 2000 when he was an Olympic finalist) and after years of being at the top and the training it takes to be there, he is just not the same guy he used to be. Okay, he ran 1.42.7 in Monaco before Beijing, but that was obviously his season pinnacle and 5 weeks is a long time in athletics. In any case, its not like he ran poorly - he was 3rd in an Olympic semi - he was just beaten by two hungrier athletes - the eventual winner Bungei and Yeimar Lopez who ran 1.43.11 that year. By the way, another example of how tough it is to progress through the rounds in the 800m for you.
3) "Ventolin", it is quite obvious from your posts that you have knowledge of this sport but purely on a statistical level and not really a practical one. Just because Kiprop runs 1.43 low off 51.XX, doesnt mean he is running a second faster at the finish if he runs a second faster in the first lap. Your claim makes sense THEORETICALLY, not PRACTICALLY. The way Kiprop runs makes total sense because of his massive aerobic advantage when running the 800 meters. At that unbelievably high level of running, a second too fast in the first lap (for any of those guys depending on their physical makeups) can make massive differences in the rest of the way the race pans out.
I tell you what, since you are so certain that he will run 1.41 - lets remember this little argument here 28/07/2009, and see what happens in the next 3-4 years (this will be his track lifespan just like Alex Kipchirchir, Ngeny, Daniel Kip Komen etc etc) Then we will see who really knows what they are talking about.
you've won my trust simply by using better grammar. I also agree with your reasoning; Ventolin seems like he knows a ton about track history but doesn't trust his own eyes at major races.
So what does everyonr think of his chances now?
http://mzungofire.blogspot.com/2009/08/asbel-kiprop-im-ready-for-both-1500-and.html