A discussion of important things that should be taught in schools but aren't (NRR -- Non Relationship/Running Related)

Surprise! wrote:

" but even a 4th grader should be able to look at the band structure of a crystal and determine whether it's a metal, semiconductor, or insulator, and how those types of things should behave as a function of temperature or the curvature of the bands."

Why should people who aren't dealing with this as part of their job have an understanding of band structures? Be glad no one knows what that is - that's why you have a job.

True. But I think it's important because it tells you why electronics work. Why do metals act like metals, semiconductors act like semiconductors (why is it called silicon valley and not, say, germanium valley), and so on.

That's another good one. I was barely taught English grammar. I wasn't fully conscious of the patterns in the English language (grammar) until I studied a foreign language.

squeek squeek squeekum wrote:

my mom reads the newspaper every day and still thinks homeowners are the primary cause of the financial crisis), but does anyone else have anything they think we should all learn more about?

Your mom is a wise woman, she is correct.

People grabbed at the low hanging fruit and bit off more than they could chew.

Why did they not know how much was too much? They didn't learn the 5 R’s; reading, writing, arithmetic, responsibility and respect.

That is what schools need to teach.

Kevin52 wrote:

People grabbed at the low hanging fruit and bit off more than they could chew.

How to write/speak figuratively...

Those are both important (and I'm currently studying both physics and economics at high school) but it's a bit much to expect a 4th grader to be able to explain how the properties of a material change with the curvature of the bands or whatever. I'm not sure I could give an adequate answer and physics is my particular interest.

I would also suggest the compulsory study of history, at least 20th century history anyway, and religion (including Islam).

Assuming we are discussing schools in the US.

1) Conversational Spanish and Chinese in elementary school

2) Conversational Arabic, Russian or Japanese in high school

3) Logic and debate - It is amazing how ill equipped students are at reasoning or defending their thoughts.

4) Typing - the most useful class I took in 12th grade 20 years ago, compared to the work I do now.

5) Daily physical education - this can be as short as 15 minutes as long as it every day

Too often the schools get the blame for the shortcomings in society. People think the schools should teach everything to kids. This is not true. Parents need to be responsible for many of the things mentioned in this thread, not the schools. Parents like to use the school as a scapegoat for their own lack of parenting skills. Poor parenting is to blame for many of society's problems, not the schools.

Another problem with our education system is that state and local governments mandate things that take time from the teacher's main task of teaching. These programs are either not funded or under-funded, and take away from the three Rs.

Let the teachers teach, and the parents be parents. Hey, Mom and Dad, when your kid ends up being a loser like you, don't blame the schools. Did you encourage them in school, help with homework, read to them, provide supplies, etc? Probably not. Look in the mirror, not elsewhere.

I think this thread is stupid. Most of the things that people are saying schools should be teaching should be taught by PARENTS. That is the problem in this country is that the parents take no responsibility for their children and they think everyone else should raise them and teach them everything. Morals, eating habits, social interactions, common decency, and other things like that should be taught by parents. Grammar, writing, math, science, history, economics, computers, and things like that should be taught in schools.

Remember also though that schools only have 12 years to teach them and there is a lot more information in the world now than there was 20 years ago. Look at how much science has blown up in the last 20 years the amount of information has basically doubled. In todays world one of the most important things to learn how to do is look up the answer because it is impossible to know everything.

My daughter attends one of the top private schools in the nation. My wife and I both attended public schools and my wife has taught in both public and private schools.

At my daughter's school, 100% of all graduates go on to attend a four year college. Many are National Merit Finalists and many end up in the Ivy League.

So this school is obviously doing many things right. Some of this has to do with the financial advantages of a school that charges a high tuition and therefore has all the resources it needs. But most of the things they get right (and that public schools get wrong) have nothing to do with money.

Here are things that my daughter's school does that public schools could do to improve with little or no extra money:

1) Students have PE every day. PE time starts with laps around the gym. The studies cited above are correct. Students perform better academically when they are in shape.

2) Students are expected to behave. If they don't they are kicked out. Period. End of story. You can't let one disruptive kid ruin the learning environment for everyone. If you don't remove behavior problems then the teacher ends up spending all of her time with that one brat. And the rest of the class suffers for it.

3) Teachers are expected to teach. If they don't they are fired. But in private school, they hardly ever need to fire anyone because it's a great place to work (see #2). In public school, teachers eventually stop caring because they are unable to do their jobs. And why should they care? They won't be fired.

4) Teachers are hired based on a proven ability to teach. Just because you have a teaching certificate doesn't mean you are any good at teaching. To get a job in the private school, candidates have to actually teach a lesson in front of a real class. The best teacher gets the job. Public schools never do this. Mostly, if you know the principal and have a teaching certificate, you get the job.

5) Limit the number of standardized tests. In public school, the kids are constantly taking standardized tests. This takes time away from teaching and generally does not help with the actual evaluation of the student. The tests are more about evaluating the teacher, which you wouldn't have to worry about if you followed #3 and #4.

6) Group kids by ability. Public schools rarely do this any more in the lower grades. It doesn't make sense to hold some kids back because others need to catch up.

7) Bring back music classes. My daughter has music twice a week. The benefits have already been stated.

8) Recognize reading disorders early. It is estimated that as much as 20% of students have some form of dyslexia. If it is severe, these students are placed in special ed, never to return to a regular classroom. The ironic thing is that dyslexic students tend to have much higher IQ scores than the general population. If the dyslexia is not severe, the students are left to flounder and just considered stupid. But dyslexia can be treated, especially if it is caught early. Those with the disorder who overcome it tend to be very successful later in life.

A public school will do everything it can to stop a child from being labeled as dyslexic. This is because it is very expensive to treat and the school would be compelled by law to offer extra help. But it's much more expensive in the long run to let the child suffer. It's cheaper to treat dyslexia for a couple of years than to place the child in special ed for the rest of his school career.

I think Jean nailed it. Too many words in English don't conform to the spelling rules. If you don't memorize them you won't spell them correctly. Also, spell check won't save you from using their for there (or they're) if you don't know the correct usage. While I agree with the poster who said it's a good idea to teach alternative ways to do math (such as 17 x 19 is the same as 10 x 10 + 7 x 9), but if the kid doesn't already know that 7 x 9 = 63 he still won't be able to do the problem. The only way to do this is by rote.

I would add, that kids in high school need a class on personal finance. The need to know how paying credit card interest will quickly put them in debt. They need to know how a low credit score will affect them if they apply for a loan. They need to know how to keep their credit score high. They need to know how running up their debts could ruin them. They need to know how much of their paycheck goes to the government. I could go on and on with this. One poster said parents should be teaching this, but the problem is most of their parents don't understand it either.

Mikesblack wrote:

I like some of the ideas on the thread and some have already been covered.

- What I'd like to see emphasized: // ( In my opinion.)

In order of importance:

Social interaction and morality( Not dogma)

. Social relationships and understanding what we know about human nature and how to effectively work and play with others. Empathy~ An understanding of value in all people,understanding their hurts and joys as one's own, even the ones we hate.

(Tools for understanding and applying knowledge)

. Logic and communication. Developing effective decision making and argumentation skills.

(Knowledge)

. History, Political Science and Geography. Emphasis on current events working backward.

Without the ability to get along, the rest doesn't mean anything.

( Strategies for motivating good health and athletic development.)

One out of three is pretty weak. Social relationships and interactions should be taught by parents. Obviously teachers have to maintain a standard of behavior in the classroom, one that requires respect for everyone, but beyond that they certainly shouldn't be teaching all that touchy-feely feelings crap. The golden rule is more than sufficient in a public classroom.

I also disagree with an emphasis on current events working backwards. Things don't happen in a vacuum. Current events are a direct product of everything that has happened before. Young students are not going to be able to grasp sufficiently the many complex events taking place in today's world - that's a tall order for most adults. However, if they are taught the fundamentals of world history in a broad overview, survey-type manner, they will internalize these facts and gradually gain a context through which they will begin to understand current events as they mature.

I do agree completely about logic, up to a point. I don't think anyone needs to be diagramming logic equations in a high school classroom (not that you suggested that...the topic just conjures up some bad memories from college Logic).

Personally, I think economics should be added to high school curriculums. I also agree with the person who said grammar, diagramming sentences, etc. I was an English/Poli Sci double major and an above average writer and I still know very little about the technical terms for complex parts of speech. It doesn't impede my ability to write, but knowing these things would help most students write better, in my opinion.

Public schools need fixing wrote:

6) Group kids by ability. Public schools rarely do this any more in the lower grades. It doesn't make sense to hold some kids back because others need to catch up.

I agree with your points except for this one, which is pretty much a crapshoot. In our community, the "gifted and talented" class in 1st-5th grade consisted of the rich children, whose parents were afraid that their kids were not going to get ahead if they were not in an honors program from the first grade. I remember being in school and the "gifted and talented" kids got to sit on bean bags in their classroom while we had standard desks. I went to middle school and high school with these kids, and maybe 2-3 of the kids in those classes were actually very smart. It seemed like an idea created so these parents could go brag to each other at the country club. It's difficult to determine the ability of a child.

Right. "gifted and talented" programs are useless. When I say "group by ability", I mean by subject. Some kids are good at math, some good at English, some good at art, etc. Every kid has some kind of talent. Talent needs to be nurtured, not held back.

I agree here. In my school there were about 5 different groups for maths and English up until GCSEs (exams 3 years before the end of high school), with the option of moving up or down a set based on tests each term. That alone provided some incentive to work hard, and it meant that everybody could work at a pace that suited them best. In mixed ability classes there are inevitably some who struggle to keep up and some who find the work dull.

This is what BlowingRockMaster put in his comment: "While I agree with the poster who said it's a good idea to teach alternative ways to do math (such as 17 x 19 is the same as 10 x 10 + 7 x 9)"

Oh My God!! What is wrong with you?

17 x 19 = 323

10 x 10 = 100

7 x 9 = 63

100 + 63 = 163, not 323

I certainly hope this form of alternative math isn't taught in our school.

You're right! I blew it and I'm blushing now. But it did it great job of illustrating what's wrong with learning alternative math prior to having a firm foundation in basic math. The sad thing is that it took someone nearly two hours to catch such a glaring screw-up.

I agree with your points except for this one, which is pretty much a crapshoot. In our community, the "gifted and talented" class in 1st-5th grade consisted of the rich children, whose parents were afraid that their kids were not going to get ahead if they were not in an honors program from the first grade. I remember being in school and the "gifted and talented" kids got to sit on bean bags in their classroom while we had standard desks. I went to middle school and high school with these kids, and maybe 2-3 of the kids in those classes were actually very smart. It seemed like an idea created so these parents could go brag to each other at the country club. It's difficult to determine the ability of a child.

__________________________________________________________

In our community, the schools are all title 1 (low income). I fit right in.

My eldest child was tagged as "TAG" because she entered kindergarten knowing how to read. The talented and gifted program consisted of letting her do kindergarten and first grade at the same time, then in 6th grade, she did her math sitting on the floor in the hallway by herself. She also was subjected to annual tests to prove that yes, she is still smart. Some how she survived. She just took the GRE and scored 800 on verbal and 790 on math.

My other kid is in Jr high and a great reader, but has suffered from 2 years of really poor elementary math instruction and is having a tough time passing pre-algebra. All of the good experienced teachers that her sister had are retired or nearing retirement and our low paying district has hired many new, young, inexperienced teachers to teach a really tough batch of kids. Few of the newbies settle here, once they get a couple of years in the trenches, they find a better paying district. PE and music were just reintroduced last year in our schools after a 5 year budget cut hiatus. Having two kids, 10 years apart can be a real eye opener in observing a school district.

A message for "top private school" person:

Apples and oranges

Public and private schools

They can not be compared.

A private school does not have to accept everybody. They do not have to spend vast resources on students with special needs. Public schools are required to do that. Private schools can throw out behavior problems as you stated, public schools can not. Those kids are disruptive, as you stated, but the public school must continue to put up with it. This list could go on and on. The bottom line is this: Do not compare private and public schools. They are different.

I'm sure your daughter's school is wonderful, but they are not working with the same students, same parents, same economics, same restrictions, etc.

BTW, the correct alternative way of writing 17 x 19 would be 9 x 7 + 9 x 10 + 10 x 7 + 10 x 10.

My world history teacher once told the class that people get vaccinated for the bubonic plague just like they get vaccinated for malaria. I almost got up and slapped her.

Of course if you think about it in a roundabout kind of way it is a true statement...