Shorter's Olympic double

Shorter had a broken foot (which he didn't know about).

Not taking anything away from Bill Rodgers, he owned NYC and Boston. Really, Shorter and Rodgers were equals, and who was better would really come down to who was best on which day. But Shorter was not healthy at NYC. And Bill Rodgers' career trajectory was similar to Shorter's, but about 4 or five years later for the best years of racing for each (going from memory).

Shorter's prime: 1970 - 1976.

Rodgers' prime: 1975 - 1981.

dukerdog wrote:

Trying to break records is bush league?

Not trying to speak for Frank, but what I always thought was he was running a certain pace, but then to just start sprinting at the end to break the record of a marathon, would make him feel like a bit of a hot dog. Maybe if one was setting out to break the record it would be different, but to come in, see what your time is (in a Marathon, not a track race) and then start sprinting was just something Shorter wasn't willing to do. He came in to the stadium and saw that he could have broken the Olympic marathon record by a second or two if he would have kicked it in. Shorter ran 2:12:19, and Abebe Bekila (sp?) ran about 2:12:10 or so in 1964.

I remember he called it Bush League. It's probably verifiable somewhere.

Also, a nice way to show respect and deference to Bikila. (correct sp)

This sounds like McGuire and Sosa when they didn't "care about records". I'm sure Shorter didn't jog it in...Nine seconds isn't two or three, he would to have seriously dropped the pace. Not going after an OR (and in essence not giving 100% effort) because it's "bush league" goes against the meaning of the Olympics.

This is a great summary of Frank Shorter's legendary running career. He simply excelled almost equally on the track and the roads....and not a bad XC runner either! As big a fan as I am of Bill Rodgers, I think Shorter had that ability on the track that BR lacked (although no slouch at 10K). I agree that their Marathon careers really overlapped for maybe one year (1976 when they went a close one-two at the Marathon Trials) Billy really didn't come on until 1975 and Frank was somewhat injured that year and didn't run the marathon seriously.(He did beat BR at a great Springbank "12" mile in London, Ont. while losing to Drayton.) The Oly Marathon Trials(1976) was the only real Marathon matchup between the two when healthy, and Shorter pulled away for a slight margin of victory, although one got the feeling that making the team was the most important thing. Would have been interesting to see an "all-out" race! Bill got hurt before the Montreal games and was ineffective, and even Frank looked a little uncomfortable "losing" to Cierpinski....but that's another issue. By 1977, Frank was past-prime and Bill started his dominance on the roads. One of those unfortunate things is that we never got to see both go head to head in their primes. As one poster said, Bill's win over Frank at NYC was perhaps due partially to Frank being either hurt or past his prime. I always felt that Frank would have had the advantage on a fairly flat course, especially with warmer conditions; Bill would have had the advantage at Boston on a cool day. Interestingly, Frank did eventually run Boston in 1978 and 1979, where he wasn't a factor with BR winning both years. Frank was running more to help promote his new clothing line and ran 2:18/2:21 and I'm sure paid his own way to Boston. (One of the biggest failures for Boston, imho, was not inviting Frank Shorter to run their race, in his prime!!)

Also, I guess I hadn't realized Shorter was the first American to break 28:00, while getting 5th at Munich to go along with his tremendous Marathon Gold. I'm amazed that on Let's Run a lot of posters downplay Shorter's time of "only" 2:12:19. (Most likely due to to the 2:05/06s common today.) First of all, a 2:12 Marathon was a great time in 1972, as the WR record was in the 2:09s. Second, as mentioned, it was a warm day, not conducive to real fast times, and Shorter was content to win himself a Gold Medal. He did show a lot of class not to kick in and beat Bikila's record ( Bikila was there in a wheelchair, I believe) and I heard that Shorter made a a request to visit with Bikila after.

Looking back, Shorter's double at Munich was amazing, and I do feel that a lot of people (myself included) tend to overlook the fact that besides winning a Gold in the Marathon, he got an extremely good 5th at 10,000m. Shorter may indeed be the most significant American distance runner of all-time. (Which would of course lead to a lot of barroom debates,as well as the infamous LR debates on this subject.) Hall, Abdi, Ritz, Rupp etc. I think would love to get a 5th Place finish at this year's games, not to mention a Gold medal!!! OSS

This is a list of current active Americans who have run faster than Shorter's 27:51 Olympic time from '72. I apologize if this list has any inaccuracies or omissions.

Meb

Abdi

Rupp

Culpepper

Webb

Ritz

Fam

Browne

Torres

Moran

Carney

Bauhs

Bizuneh

Some of these guys are getting long in the tooth. Some are 5,000-10,000 guys and have never run a marathon. Some are barely better than 27:51 as PRs. The bottom six would have to run within 1 to 9 seconds of their PRs.

I'll concede Hall could run both 27:51 and 2:12 in a week.

Abdi and Meb probably could.

Who else?

No doubt in my mind Shorter had superior performances when it counted. A few years ago I asked Rodgers what performance/race was he most proud of and he said without a doubt it was at World Cross in 1975 where he won bronze and equaled the highest finish ever by an American at the time.

No way wrote:

The real question is, who can repeat Zatopek's triple?

I was thinking about that the other day too. It would be quite a feat for someone to even QUALIFY out of their own country for all three events. I think it would take an extremely talented, well trained 10k runner with blazing finishing speed. Natural speed to finish the 5k, and a background of high mileage for the marathon. The 5k and 10k have become too fast for a marathoner to "drop down" to race them at an international level. Someone like Bekele or Geb (in his prime!) might have been able to pull it off. It might be more feasible at a cooler, drier venue.

12345 wrote:

No way wrote:

The real question is, who can repeat Zatopek's triple?

I was thinking about that the other day too. It would be quite a feat for someone to even QUALIFY out of their own country for all three events.

Well, it would be easier out of a country like the Czech Republic. If a runner had the A standards in all three, they would likely be one of the only eligible runners in some of those events, making qualifying a bit easier.

Still remarkable, but with not too many Africans competing and East Asians not yet a force in the marathon, it wasn't quite the challenge it would be now.

Oh, and how has nobody responded to the person who said Rupp?????

malmo wrote:

Katy Lied wrote:

Which of today's U.S. runners could do 27:51 and 2:12:20 within a few days of each other in Olympic competition? Any?

It was a week, not a "few days." I'm sure all of them (except Sell) could.

27:58, 3 days, 27:51, 7days, 2:12:20

I'm surprised Malmo would say all of today's runners could do it. Even Ritz has a marathon PR only a minute faster than that and 5k only 15 seconds faster.

I guess I'm curious who you mean by all?

Do you mean all the 10k and marathon qualifiers?

Hall, Ritzenhein, Sell

Abdi, Torres, Rupp?

I see Hall and Abdirahman as likely, Ritzenhein and Sell as decent possibilities and Torres and Rupp as unlikely (esp. Torres). This is assuming current fitness levels, not somewhere that Torres, Rupp and Ritzenhein could end up sometime.

malmo wrote:

It was a week, not a "few days." I'm sure all of them (except Sell) could.

27:58, 3 days, 27:51, 7days, 2:12:20

I am less sure. The Munich marathon was run in the afternoon, with temperatures in the mid-70s and moderate humidity. It wasn't Beijing but, with the afternoon start, the weather was far from ideal for fast times.

Also, the course was not particularly fast. Although it was mostly flat, several miles of the Munich course consisted of a sloped dirt path; several of the runners complained about it afterwards. When you look at the results, you see a bunch of 2:08-2:11 guys who ran in the 2:15-2:20 range.

I am not sure Ritz would run 2:12:20 on that course on that day, even if he had not raced two 10,000s the week before.

You think it is unlikely that a 27:30 guy could run a 2:12? Obviously it will come down to how he is training (mileage and long run) but I am guessing it would be pretty close.

not sure wrote:

Oh, and how has nobody responded to the person who said Rupp?????

Trollie McSockpuppet wrote:

malmo wrote:

It was a week, not a "few days." I'm sure all of them (except Sell) could.

27:58, 3 days, 27:51, 7days, 2:12:20

I am less sure. The Munich marathon was run in the afternoon, with temperatures in the mid-70s and moderate humidity.

It was in the early evening, finishing in the dark. Also cloudy throughout, temps in the 60s.

Blah wrote:

You think it is unlikely that a 27:30 guy could run a 2:12? Obviously it will come down to how he is training (mileage and long run) but I am guessing it would be pretty close.

Yes, when the 27:30 guy has never raced over 10 miles. As I said, I mean right now, not in the future.

Well other than hall and ritz, then the answer is going to be no one since I don't think any of them are at the point of their training cycle were they are ready to run a marathon in 10 days. I am going to guess Hall and Ritz can run a 27:50 off of their marathon training.

not sure wrote:

Blah wrote:

You think it is unlikely that a 27:30 guy could run a 2:12? Obviously it will come down to how he is training (mileage and long run) but I am guessing it would be pretty close.

Yes, when the 27:30 guy has never raced over 10 miles. As I said, I mean right now, not in the future.

Munchen wrote:

It was in the early evening, finishing in the dark. Also cloudy throughout, temps in the 60s.

Rome

Shorter also had to run a heat in the 10K. so 2 10ks with 4 days and then the marathon less than a week later. Impressive.

wrong wrote:

Munchen wrote:

It was in the early evening, finishing in the dark. Also cloudy throughout, temps in the 60s.

Rome

Wrong again. Almost all Olympic Marathons start in the evening and finish in the dark.

Track Fan wrote:

Shorter also had to run a heat in the 10K. so 2 10ks with 4 days and then the marathon less than a week later. Impressive.

Not less than a week, it was 7 days. Last I checked 7 days is a week.