Racing a sprinter in the 800 - any advice?

People overthink these types of races. Your best chance of winning is running the fastest time that you're capable of running for 800 meters. That probably means running close to even splits. Trying to run to his weaknesses is counterproductive.

I remember reading that Paavo Nurmi once said, when asked about his competition, "I will run 4:10. If they run slower than that I will beat them. If they run faster than that, they will beat me."

If he can run faster than 1:55, he will probably beat you no matter what you do. If he can't, he won't. Unless of course you follow some goofball stategy trying to mess with his head, and end up running 2:05. But even then, you'll probably still beat him.

Some months ago there was a very similar post, except I think the race might have been 1600 meters. The distance guy won but the sprinter hung tough. I think the tipping point for the sprinter was at 600 meters.

ideas needed wrote:

I need some advice. Due to a drunken dare, I'll be racing a sprinter over a "middle" distance. The guy I'm racing is a 200/400 type guy, who is in the 49-50 range for a 400m. I am more of a 1500/5k type, but I can probably run about 1:54-1:55 for the 800 in the shape I'm in.

What's the strategy for beating this guy? Do I go out hard, run a 54-55 400m, and then hope he dies off? Run even pace? I don't want this guy near me with 200m to go, that's for sure.

The closer you run to your PR, the better your chances. So try to time trial a 1:54. That probably means about a 56/58.

I coach 400/800 types. There are two strategies that are often used by sprinters. One of these, as I'm sure you know, is the one used by Jonathan Johnson or Johnny Gray, which is to go out in about 2 seconds slower than your 400 best and try to hang on. The theory here is that since sprinters have stronger anaerobic systems, going out harder will put endurance runners into oxygen debt first.

In my mind, the more effective strategy is the reverse of the one above: Hang waaaay back, creating as little lactate/H+ as possible, then with 200m to go blow everybody away with a flat-out sprint. This is wat Rich Kenah did to win a bronze in the 1997 WC and Mark Everett barely missed. Golf Cap Man also used this strategy to win gold.

If you're an endurance-trained runner, you don't want to use either of these but be aware of them: I just described how all 3 all-time top times in the 800 by Americans were run. If you can run 1:54 as a 5000m guy, your best distribution is 53-55/59-61: A faster first lap but not within a couple of seconds of you 400 PR. If he goes out in what seems to be REALLY fast or REALLY slow, don't try to stay with him; Run a more balanced race with equal effort, but slight positive splits.

Ilove the 800, but I think that in many ways 600m would be more interesting race. It's the one way where you might see Wariner v. Kaki, for instance. Or Sanya v. Jelimo.

controlled bleeding wrote:

Ilove the 800, but I think that in many ways 600m would be more interesting race. It's the one way where you might see Wariner v. Kaki, for instance. Or Sanya v. Jelimo.

Look at indoors. 600 is not a frequently raced distance, but it is raced. There is also the 300, which is interesting for similiar reasons (Gay vs. Wariner would be cool).

I think the best strategy is to essentially run it as a time trial. The worst thing you can do is go out too hard and die. Going out in 57 sounds about right. If the sprinter goes out crazy in 52, don't worry about it, he will most likely come back to you. Also, don't panick if he is with you at 200m to go. There is a huge difference between being able to run a 22 second 200m fresh and being able to run a fast 200m after a 1:26 600m.

Harry Kooter wrote:

I raced one of our 400 guys in an 800 in high school. The kid was a 48 second guy, and I was a 2:10 800 runner, so he was a hell of a lot better than me. The 48 second guy finished the 800 in 2:15 and proceeded to puke. 400 to 800 is probably the most difficult jump to make from one event to the next longest event.

A friend of mine raced a 400/200 guy who was later the same season the junior college state champion in 46/21.

I thought the sprinter would kick butt, but low and behold my friend was pushing the pace all the way with the other guy hanging on. They ended up sprinting side by side full out down the stretch, with the whole team cheering them on and my friend prevailing at the finish, times around 2:09/2:10. The 400/200 guy was in a really bad way and sick for quite awhile afterwards.

Coach D wrote:

There are two strategies that are often used by sprinters.

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In my mind, the more effective strategy is the reverse of the one above: Hang waaaay back, creating as little lactate/H+ as possible, then with 200m to go blow everybody away with a flat-out sprint. This is wat Rich Kenah did to win a bronze in the 1997 WC and Mark Everett barely missed. Golf Cap Man also used this strategy to win gold.

Dave Wottle was a sprinter?!?

If you can run 1:54-55 then you can run the race however you damn please. If the guy has never ran an 800 before he ain't breaking 2:00. Not likely at least.

dukerdog wrote:

Coach D wrote:

There are two strategies that are often used by sprinters.

.

.

.

In my mind, the more effective strategy is the reverse of the one above: Hang waaaay back, creating as little lactate/H+ as possible, then with 200m to go blow everybody away with a flat-out sprint. This is wat Rich Kenah did to win a bronze in the 1997 WC and Mark Everett barely missed. Golf Cap Man also used this strategy to win gold.

Dave Wottle was a sprinter?!?

No, nor was Kenah really, but Kenah used the same strategy as Mark Everett in 1997 and both ran 1:43-low.

I think a lot of guys here may be underestimating the sprinter. I had a friend who was a 49 guy throughout most of college (pr'd at 48. near the end of senior spring), and he ran a 1:59 in his debut 800, and got down to 1:54 after a few more races (doing 400 oriented training). Not saying this sprinter can go out and drop a 1:54, but that if you're not careful in this race it may be more difficult to win than it would appear on paper.

dead poets society wrote:

If you can run 1:54-55 then you can run the race however you damn please. If the guy has never ran an 800 before he ain't breaking 2:00. Not likely at least.

I'd agree with this. Unless the guy is some sort of freak and has mad endurance, you should be fine.

Can't offer advice, but now I'm all agog waiting to hear how this contest turns out. When is the race?

Doesn't sounds like a fair race to me. This guy isn't breaking 1:58, and will probably be over 2:00. I'd love to see you two in a 600 though.

good luck! i think if he's a 200/400 guy he'll hold his own for a while but will not be able to finish like a distance guy would be able to.

if it were me, i'd toy with a guy's head and sit behind him no matter what for the first 200 so he thought i was struggling, atleast a bit, to keep up with him and his pace whatever that may be...

then if it's fast enough for a decent first 400 around 56 or 57 then stay back there, let him think he's dragging you. if it's too slow, get close, maybe attempt to pass and let him fight you off a bit, wasting more of his energy.

either way with 300 left make sure you put on a surge for about 100 meters and then stride out and relax for 50-60 meters, and he might have lost you with 300 and is feeling down until he maybe thinks you are wearing out...

then SNAP! with 140-150 to go blast and drop the hammer. his spirits will break. and he'll be done.

so that's what i would do, but i think if someone challenged me to an 800 i'd make sure that not only did i make them feel pain physically as i did, i also would want to make sure they hurt mentally, showing my dominance at that distance, and gaining their respect...or you could hammer the whole thing and gain their respect either way.

dpmrunner wrote:

Can't offer advice, but now I'm all agog waiting to hear how this contest turns out. When is the race?

Friday night. The race was scheduled last weekend, so he had a few days to prepare.

ideas needed wrote:

Friday night. The race was scheduled last weekend, so he had a few days to prepare.

Thanks, I'll await with interest. Based on the comments here, I'm betting on the distance guy. Good luck! Keep us posted!