but, as evidenced by the OP, doing HIGH intensive pace training isn't the only way to practice pace training. His is LOW intensity and he'll likely have better results and won't have to back down.
You don't have to pound out every footstep of your running to get better. Being committed to improving is as much about doing a lot of work just as much as it is about knowing how to hold back.
Sure, in general I agree with you, but its not that simple. Training still needs to be modulated for best results. Also, you need to go through occasional periods of very high intensity training to reach peak performance.
The great thing about pace-oriented training, as wellnow pointed out, is that it makes you focus on a goal.
Sometimes you need to run by effort and feeling (usually during early/general/reloading cycles but other times you need to work very hard to hit certain paces at near race intensities.
watch your aquiles tendon. mine is kind of toast right now. how did the 20 x 37/38 feel? that's about 75 second pace for 400m. try doing 10 x 400m @ 75 w/ 1 min. rest. if you can do that, and with a few more short, small speed sessions, you could run 4:56 for 1600m. If you can't do the 400m workout, try tweaking it, or maybe do something more like 8-15 x 300m w/ 1 min. rest/jog/ at race pace. you could probably run 3200m in under 11:00, and you could possibly run an 800m in the 2:15-2:30 range.
Modulating training is good in principal but it's not that simple as well. Yes, you break seasons down into base, strength and speed but think of each of those phases more as what the focus should be. You should be touching all physiological systems (endurance, vo2, speed, etc) in all phases of training. It's really just a matter of what your focusing on.
For example: In your base phase the speed component may be 10x100m once every 6 - 9 days. Not much but still touching speed. On the other hand, in your speed phase you will still want to periodically touch up threshold with a short tempo or LT workout. It's not every week.. it may be once every 15 - 20 days in this phase but you can't go away from it completely. Also in speed you will want to some longer runs. Not every week and not as long as you did in your base phase but something to keep the aerobic systems firing.
Sure, in general I'm pretty much in agreement with what you say here and have preached the same. So all and all I think we're on the same page.
My major point is that you have to train at a very high intensity (for the middle distance) to reach maximum performance levels but that you can't do this ad infinitum. If you try, you will plateau and then regress. Race pace training is critical during this high intensity phase because you are training for performance at a given pace(s) rather than to raise some physiological parameter. To recover at the CNS level from a high intensity phase requires one to initially train at a lower than normal intensity, hence the modulation.
This is not a new idea. Most coaches know and understand this at a technical level. However the art is knowing when and how to modulate and how to individualize it. A true master commands both science and art and that's the topic of a very long book, not a post.
JS, I finally got a chance to read your other posts (in addition to the OP). Your mix of training; your posited progression from 200s to longer distances; your looking at the 200s (etc.) as a supplementary, not a major-emphasis, workout--all of these, in my opinion, are just right.
I would suggest that you stick to your plan and let us know how it goes!
irun wrote:
how did the 20 x 37/38 feel? that's about 75 second pace for 400m. try doing 10 x 400m @ 75 w/ 1 min. rest. if you can do that, and with a few more short, small speed sessions, you could run 4:56 for 1600m. If you can't do the 400m workout, try tweaking it, or maybe do something more like 8-15 x 300m w/ 1 min. rest/jog/ at race pace. you could probably run 3200m in under 11:00, and you could possibly run an 800m in the 2:15-2:30 range.
They felt fine. Didn't have to push on any of them or even look at my watch to keep pace. I was just crusing. I didn't mean for this to be an indicator workout even though I guess I did ask that in the beginning. I just wanted to see if anyone else had had any luck with these kind of progressive workouts.
just starting wrote:
wellnow wrote:As well as doing pace work for 5 minute miling, you should also gradually improve how long you can hold 4 minute miling, 4.30 miling etc. It all depends how good you want to be.
You know, that makes more sense. Then, not only will my distances times drop, but so will my 800m and 1600m times
Am I correct in thinking that these workouts aren't v02 workouts, so the improvments are only coming from coordination and efficiency gains? And since they aren't v02max, they won't be strenuous and I don't have to be worn out by them. Also, I'll still have a significant increase in ability jump left for when i go through the v02 phase of training (since I haven't already used the phase).
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A good target for any aspiring young male distance runner is to run 800m under two minutes. 800m races help to develop stride length which is crucial for long distance runners too, even for the marathon and beyond, an early grounding in 800,1500,1600, mile races in many cases determines who is going to good over long distances, even for those runners who lack speed.
Mileage is of course important for basic fitness and recovery, but it would take many years of mileage plus racing to get that long stride you need, whereas a good training plan can turn a beginner into a fast distance runner in a much shorter period of time.
I don't think of training in terms of VO2max, because I don't think it is really relevant. Your VO2max is mostly your genetic inheritance. Once you are quite fit, which doesn't take long, and you have low body fat, then your VO2 max doesn't really improve. What you can improve enormously is your running economy, that is your ability to glide along with each stride, as the fastest runners in the World do rather than bounce along which is what slow runners do, they might be using the same amount of energy to run at 7 minute miles as a faster runner doing 4.30 miling.
So yes, most of your improvement in any pace session is from efficiency and co-ordination as you say. You are practising a longer stride than you are used to. This applies for all paces. This is often called speed endurance work, pace work or race specific work.
This applies for you perhaps up to around 30 seconds for 200m repeats which is pace work for 800m and beyond that, you are entering the realm of real speed work (depending on how much natural speed you have of course)
Phoenix wrote:
Sure, in general I'm pretty much in agreement with what you say here and have preached the same. So all and all I think we're on the same page.
My major point is that you have to train at a very high intensity (for the middle distance) to reach maximum performance levels but that you can't do this ad infinitum. If you try, you will plateau and then regress. Race pace training is critical during this high intensity phase because you are training for performance at a given pace(s) rather than to raise some physiological parameter. To recover at the CNS level from a high intensity phase requires one to initially train at a lower than normal intensity, hence the modulation.
This is not a new idea. Most coaches know and understand this at a technical level. However the art is knowing when and how to modulate and how to individualize it. A true master commands both science and art and that's the topic of a very long book, not a post.
Phoenix, good to see you back, have you been doing lots of research lately?
Hopefully I will be able to run fast enough soon to experience some real central nervous system over-stimulation. I want to get well under 4 minutes for 1500m
I have been doing lots of races in the last few weeks, but even though I run them as hard as I can, I am recovering quickly, so I know I'm not at my peak yet.
That very long book that you talk about, will it be readable? It seems to me that the science is almost impossible to explain to anyone regardless of their background. Trying to explain lactate metabolism for example, it's impossible, and inevitably leads to arguments which would take decades to resolve.
I have some questions on this subject which you may be more qualified to answer than most.
The 14:30 guys here were doing 10 times 400 in 62 with 1
minute rest.
The 13:35 guy was doing 6 times 1000 in 2:45, and 10 times
400 in 60 down as low as 52 with a 1 minute rest.
wellnow wrote:
This applies for you perhaps up to around 30 seconds for 200m repeats which is pace work for 800m and beyond that, you are entering the realm of real speed work (depending on how much natural speed you have of course)
Sweet man. I liked your post.
Now, speaking of natural speed. I've been looking to improve that too. I can run 100m in about 11.5 and a 200m in about 23 during cross season. How can I drop those times a little more during the summer?
The sub 4 miler here had a top end of 23 at 200, and
48.x at 400.
If you are looking at 21-22, that's what some elites run.
fred wrote:
The 14:30 guys here were doing 10 times 400 in 62 with 1
minute rest.
The 13:35 guy was doing 6 times 1000 in 2:45, and 10 times
400 in 60 down as low as 52 with a 1 minute rest.
And I would bet that they were doing those workouts without killing themselves too. Consistent regular good workouts building confidence to bring those results in races.
11.5 for 100 and 23 for 200 during cross season? are you sure? That's rather swift.
wellnow wrote:
11.5 for 100 and 23 for 200 during cross season? are you sure? That's rather swift.
yeah, i timed them during last cross season
ok, it's been a week.
Today:
am: 2 mile warm up, 8x250m in 46, 1 CD
pm: 2 mile warm up, 21x250 in 45, 1x400 in 69, 1 CD
felt great
i think i'll work up to 20x400m, then drop the repititions down to 800s at least 10 times?
Well looks interesting. Keep us informed on progress. That's a lot of repeats by the way haha. Good job