Mihalyi Igloi - article

thanks Orville i appreciate that. It's just i am a coach now and so have started trying to think like one. Maybe you can remember your feelings throughout the sessions you did? One thing i wonder i how accurately did he gauge the work and rest proportions through a session. Like how fatigued did you get at different stages during a session. How did you feel after the first hard set and then after the next set and so on, Also how did the easier sets often of different tempos enable you to recover before the next hard set.

cheers

flow

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

flow,

I believe the purpose of the tempo changes centered on turnover and running economy. I believe the varying tempos used different muscles, and could be applied during stages of a race. For example, a Swing Tempo for mid-race and Speed Tempo for finishing. As far as arm swing, the flexion action, could be viewed as short/long lever positions to generate drive. Igloi rarely discussed the "why" of coaching methods. So, all of this is my asumption garnered from three years as one of Igloi's athletes.

GOI

thanks ghost, nice analysis, i like it.

The swing tempo for more loping running and the speed for pushing it along kind of thing. Also speed would use more of the power muscles i guess like the gastocnemius over the soleus for example. Nice.

I also like the lever advantage as well, opening the angle on the way back and closing it on the way forward feels mechanically correct to me.

Is there anything else you have considered or remembered over the years? Ideas on how the sessions were put toghether would be a good one for me.

cheers

flow

Flow.

I assume that you have read the Mihaly Igloi thread that is mentioned on the first page at least once. I also hope that you have read Bob Schul's "In The Long Run". It is very good. The description of Bob's first couple of days with Igloi and the fact that he was tested by being told to run with Laszlo Tabori, a top world class runner who had been doing Igloi workouts for over 10 years. There were times when Igloi tested me or strenghthened me by putting me with others. Everyone was faster than I was but I did have a lot of stamina. As I have said on the thread mentioned above the Igloi system was Mihaly Igloi and it kept evolving . Every athlete received customized workouts based on the vast knowledge and experience that the Coach had. After a workout he would occassionally say "you ran well" or "you drive well". One Sunday he said "hard day". I have added beside that comment in my log "WOW-60 repeats". On Saturday I had run 16 laps (600+ yards) on the grass - 1 easy, 1 fresh swing in the morning and 15 laps plus 20 x 330 fresh speed with 110 jog in the evening. A rest day. Then Sunday-- 10 laps warm up and 10 shake-ups then (20 x 150 good speed with 70 yard jog, 2 laps jog, 10 x 260 hard swing with 180 jog, 2 lap jog)x2 and then 10 shake-ups. Coach often mentioned technique which I think his training was all about. With massive amounts of training and the two leg actions the runners techniqe improved. Of course with the added strength one ran faster. It was a long time ago but I think that the switch in leg actions and tempos allowed the athlete to do more work in addition to giving the legs additional all round strength. By the way, no one should try do duplicate these workouts. I had been training with Coach Igloi for 14 months before I did them.

flow,

One day I remember vividly, I ran about an hour and fifteen minutes in the morning. In the evening I started practice at 5:30 pm and did not finish until 8:30 pm. I was the only athlete still at the track. That day I probably ran in excess of twenty miles.

Coach Igloi was a very good man that was not only a good coach, but an inspiration person. He did a lot for me personally at a time I needed direction. I have many good memories of that time. I ran for coach from the time I was 16 to 19 years old.

GOI

I had a day like that Ghost. Coach and I were alone on the track for the last half hour of my workout. As we left he said "I will see you at 5:30 in the morning" and he did.

I was very different from Ghost of Igloi. I ran with Coach Igloi from age 28 to age 30. I had been running marathons for 3 years and, as it turned out, had run about my lifetime personal best at all distances. I walked onto his field during one of his workouts and asked him to train me. He accepted me with no questions asked. In fact he drove me to the airport the morning after we first met because I was in the middle of a trip. I never paid a cent for his coaching. He was there 13 times a week no matter what the weather was. He became a friend. I was welcomed into his home and we went to a Hungarian restaurant a time or two. All he asked is that each athlete gave his best and did it the Coaches way. As stated on the Mihaly Igloi thread and as Jim Beatty has stated in interviews and articles, Coach had an uncanny feel for what each athlete could do and for what time we would run in each race. He was a master of his profession.

You guys should have been lucky enough to have had Ghost of Igloi as a coach like I did. Some quick stories: I'm a 16 year old senior in New Mexico.(1976) Ghost is coaching at a local junior college. He takes me under his wing, takes me to his team's workout and says to me, "These guys may be able to help you run faster." (Insert evil grin). Yeah, guys like Kenyans: Ben Mokua, Julius Ogaro, William Mutai, etc. and future collegiate All-Americans: Terry Johnson, Bob Jackson, etc. etc. These guys eat me for lunch. I come back for more. (I'm a real slow learner.) After high school Ghost recruits me to his school. First brutally hot August New Mexico workout, the Kenyans and "All-Americans" are burying this high school "super star". I start whining about my pain and suffering. Ghost replies."Mighty, go home and get a big pail of ice-cold water." "Yes, Coach," as I wait for great words of running wisdom. (Ghost's evil grin, again), "Then soak your head in the water for 5 minutes. All your pain will be gone!!"

Fast forward two years. I'm now running for Ghost in balmy Kansas, in January. Its the old up-the-hill, down-the-hill, now sprint till you puke, now to the golf course for green-to-green intervals, etc. etc. I start whining again, (Did I mention I'm a real slow learner?) Ghost replies (same evil grin)," See that cemetary over there? You will rest many years there, but for now RUN!" God, what a fantastic human being! No excuses. Just train and train and Win. Here I am now, over thirty years later and when the excuses not to train enter my race-fried, only-know-how-to-win brain, I get my own evil grin and think, "I'm not resting in that cemetary yet!" Thanks Coach Ghost. Reid, you are the best.

Orville i did go through it once about a year ago and 'now' i'm on it for a second time, much better understanding this time around thanks for the tip. Also i just ordered Bob's book from the Bill Rodgers Running Center.

I like the idea of being able to do more work because of the two different leg actions. Apart from being a simple and clear technical structure it also gives the athletes something to focus on other than the pain. I comment to my athletes as they run past. Initially it threw them but after a few sessions they became used to it and now it is a fantastic tool, keeps them mentally active and means we can have more opportunities to change technique. Also i find they can make better changes whilst they are already running especially if they have learned the change in a drill form already. And being an ex technical eventer means i have a lot to do with that side of an athlete. I have to admit i now need to see both conditioning and technical aspects occurring for me to really respect another coach.

The problem is most of the time i have a little idea or theory about Igloi. So i look at his workouts and try to see if it holds true but soon enough find a workout where it doesn't. Very tricky stuff. I still can't get my head around it at all really. I appreciate your time in helping me to understand it. The idea that a rest day like your Saturday is actually a rest day is a scary thought, but then if it has a lower workload than a normal day it would have a recovery effect. Fresh sounds like recovery mode but quick movements instead of slow which is recovery orientated in my book and also returns the normal running feeling after becoming heavy from hard workouts. Does this sound likely?

flow

GOI

that is a pretty glowing recommendation from the mighty quinn. Can you tell me how much longer steady running you would have done under coach Igloi? I'm glad i found my coach at 18 for some direction as well all the knowledge i gained.

flow

Quinn, shut up and run............You get rained out the last couple of days??

B

Bobby, No rain here at 6650' altitude, just clouds and thunder. I'm getting much faster with the multiple sets and reps in prep for the fall racing. I'm racing in Gallup this Sunday against Galen's kids. It's always fun to beat the reigning state champion teens as an old man! They just can't fathom the work necessary to compete. If more coaches would read Orville's or Ghost's threads about the volume and quality of training needed to race well this wouldn't be happening. Oh well. By the way, YOU need to race more, my dear elder. That is not a hint but an order soldier! Now shut up and race.

I'm thinking Masters XC in Greensboro. Too much traveling to train properly. Spent the last week at 78-8000 outside Durango at Vallecito. Great running in the mountains. Rather than hijack this thread, you can always email me at

bob.pratte@hubinternational.com

B

A runner who had about the same times me at the time invited me to train with him when Douglas was the coach in the 1970's.

There were 5 or 6 of us in the group and the first thing was running 15x 100 back and forth, run down one direction, jog around slow and then back. On the first one I was ready to take off but surprised they were only running at a jog, doing the 100's around 7 minute mile pace if that.

Then Douglas said to do it again, 2 or 3 more times. We might have jogged a very slow 800 in between and afterwards, and that was the end of the workout. The fellow said that was about what they did every time.

Anyway it was boring. I didn't see much use to it and didn't go back.

Excursion, Did the friend who took you to the Coach Douglas workout stay with him long? Did he improve? How much did you improve in that time? How old were you at the time? In addition to running with Coach Igloi for 20 monthe in my late 20s, I trained twice a week with Joe Douglas in my 40th year.

The other runners in your group may have been having a very easy day or they may not have been going at the right tempo. The first few workouts a coach gives a runner are an opportunity for the coach to begin to know the runner's abilities as a runner and is often a test for that runner. The coach needs to know how fast the runner is, his condition, the runners recovery rate and strength and most importantly his mental strength and attitude. Until he knows the runner, the coach has to avoid injuring that runner. You did not return, so you did not waste either the coaches or your own time. Without complete confidence and trust in the coach, both the athlete's and coach's time is being wasted. By the way, I have never (or at least extremely seldom) found running boring no matter what the workout or run and I have done it all. I hope that you still enjoy running.

Orville was right, when I spent two weeks TDY when I was in the Air Force, Igloi killed me for those two weeks and I do talk about it in my book.

I could not believe how much work Tabori and I were doing as I trained with Laszlo every morning and night. There were times when I finished and Laszlo continued with another set. The outcome was I made my first USA team and I believe the reason was I learned how to push my body when I was training with Igloi.

Through the two years I was with Igloi we had some very fine runners led by Jim Beatty. You have to remember the club held all the American records from 1500 to 10K except for the steeple and that was my fault. I was on world record pace in 1962 but my body fell apart with two laps to go. Six weeks later I found I had mono and spent two months in the hospital. But I ramble.

Igloi was a tremendous man and and so dedicated. There was a time he developed a double hernia and refused to get the surgery until the fall season had passed. Finally the doctor told him to either get the surgery or he would be in grave trouble. He did but was back out in a little over a week. It was the first time I ever saw him sit during a workout which he did for several weeks.

My web site is bobschul.net if anyone would like to read some stories I have there. I am waiting on my book to be printed as I am sold out of the first printing. I also started a site called distancelegends.com although it is still being put together. These are the athletes who brought distance running to a par with the rest of the world.

Bob -

Question for you: I noticed in your training book that you prescribe a lot of easy (Fresh) 100s. What is your intended purpose? Thanks.

bump

Tinman,

Igloi used hundreds between sets and I still do the same. It allows the athlete to relax and prepare for the next set. I look at the training day not in mileage but in time that the heart rate is above 70% of max. Of course there are times when I took my heart rate to very high levels. That might occur when I ran repeat 200's with a fifty walk in 24-25. Heart rate would go to 230 BPM.

After a set like that it was nice to do 10 x 100 meters at a nice relaxed pace so I could be ready for the next set.

Yes the heart rate did fall but it is impossible to keep it above 70% for an hour and a half to 2 hours. the point is to keep it there for as many minutes as possible. It would hae been interesting to have a heart monitor to see how the rate fluctuated during the workout.

Good to see Tinman still posting here now and then.

Orville,The friend was someone I'd met at a race, and don't recall seeing him again after that day at the track. I don't know if he improved. I was 29 and kept improving quite a bit.The runners said it was a typical day, and I got the same impression from Douglas. He was directing things and they were doing everything in the manner that he said.My impression of the group as a whole, prior to going there and reinforced by that day and later, was that they were severely lacking in stamina, an impression that is borne out by results.Yes, I still enjoy my running very much. It is the experience with Douglas and the group that was boring.

the heart rate did fall but it is impossible to keep it above 70% for an hour and a half to 2 hours

This substantiates my earlier point, as a 70% heart rate is a moderate effort and should be easily maintainable for 2 hours.