5 Key Marathon Workouts

Absolutely. But these are pretty tried and true, but even these have ranges.

Very interesting thread. A question for MPR - what types would you have a marathoner do in the base phase. Thanks for your time.

I can't type or read today. I meant to ask, what type of workouts would you have a runner do in the base phase?

MPR wrote:

a new annoyance wrote:

So 24miler makes sense on a 70 mile week? That means that I am running 46 miles for the raining 6 days or less than 8 a day?

Read Daniels. He recommends an average of 25-30% of weekly mileage for long runs. 30% of 80 miles is 24, so a 24 on a 70 mile week (34%) would be pushing the envelope....

Read Pfitz. He wrote that he bumped his long runs up from 21 to 24 miles for a couple of marathons and he ran those slower. He argues for 21-22 as the max for a long run in marathon training.

Read Pfitz. He wrote that he bumped his long runs up from 21 to 24 miles for a couple of marathons and he ran those slower. He argues for 21-22 as the max for a long run in marathon training.[/quote]

I am not so sure. I know in his 93 and under 24 week cycle he calls for 1, and perhaps 2, 24 milers.

a new annoyance wrote:

So 24miler makes sense on a 70 mile week? That means that I am running 46 miles for the raining 6 days or less than 8 a day?

A 70 mile week doesn't make sense for marathon training.

And the plans in Pfitz' book are emphatically not how he actually trained. For whatever reason he did not say "XYZ worked for me so I suggest you also do XYZ".

The Decider wrote:

Very interesting thread. A question for MPR - what types would you have a marathoner do in the base phase. Thanks for your time.

Again it depends alot on the individual including how long of a base phase they need to get to the target mileage leve, what they have been doing prior to this base phase and several other factors.

But using generalities I don't do much in the way of quality workouts during the base phase, just mainly easy paced distance work with a weekly long run and at most an occassional progression run or reduced pace tempo run. The focus is on ramping up mileage and general aerobic fitness in advance of more race specific work.

But again the specifics depends alot on the individual's circumstances.

Can you give approximate HR % for these? I run a lot of hills and mostly on trails.

Hilly trailrunner wrote:

Can you give approximate HR % for these? I run a lot of hills and mostly on trails.

I do not use HR alot as a training guideline but in general i think the following guidelines would get you in the right area. Although % of max heart rate for various speeds depends on fitness level to some extent (i.e. a world class runner may be able to race at an average of 90% of Max HR for a marathon while lesser trained middle of the back runner may be closer to the 85% range.)

80-85% of MRP would be about 70-75% of maximum HR

100% of MPR would be about 85-90% of maximum HR

105% of MPR would be about 90-92% of maximum HR

110% of MPR would be about 95-98% of maximum HR

Since you run on hills and uneven surfaces it would be more important to look at your average HR during a run rather than highs or lows.

READ THE REST OF THE TOPIC, IT SAYS IT IS NOT RECOMENDED BUT POSSIBLE!!!

MPR wrote:

As for the training cycle. I recommend using these workouts in the 8-10 weeks before the taper, once desired mileage level has been achieved.

MPR - Why only 8-10 weeks? Assuming goal mileage is achieved, could this phase (I think you termed it the "sharpening" phase in an earlier post) be longer?

Second question…understanding a lot depends on the individual, would it be more effective to have a longer “sharpening phase” (assuming adequate mileage is achieved) OR have a longer base phase and attempt to achieve higher mileages?

By the way, great post!

Hi,

I must incorporte these WO in one week ? Sorry but don't understand...only two easy days, because I am incorporating 5 wo in 7 days ???????

May you show me one typical week ?

Thanks

haha, YO wrote:

a new annoyance wrote:

So 24miler makes sense on a 70 mile week? That means that I am running 46 miles for the raining 6 days or less than 8 a day?

A 70 mile week doesn't make sense for marathon training.

95% of the people running a marathon probably run less than that.

Charub wrote:

Hi,

I must incorporte these WO in one week ? Sorry but don't understand...only two easy days, because I am incorporating 5 wo in 7 days ???????

May you show me one typical week ?

Thanks

The OP said to do 2 of these workouts per week if you are running 80 to 120 mpw, one workout every 4-7 days if you are running less volume than that.

This isn't meant to be a weekly schedule.

Lost Goat Herder wrote:

MPR wrote:

As for the training cycle. I recommend using these workouts in the 8-10 weeks before the taper, once desired mileage level has been achieved.

MPR - Why only 8-10 weeks? Assuming goal mileage is achieved, could this phase (I think you termed it the "sharpening" phase in an earlier post) be longer?

Second question…understanding a lot depends on the individual, would it be more effective to have a longer “sharpening phase” (assuming adequate mileage is achieved) OR have a longer base phase and attempt to achieve higher mileages?

By the way, great post!

Certainly you can use longer than 8-10 weeks. I think 6 is a minimum to get good adaptation to the quality work and 18 is probably a maximum after which staleness and overtraining become more and more likely. Generally I like 8-12 weeks for this sharpening phase depending on the schedule of the runner.

I think it imparitive to take a long range approach to running as improvement comes from consistency over a long period of time. So with a long term approach I limit the amount of increase from cycle to cycle. As you said, every one is different but in general I don't recommend an experienced runner (who has been training for several years - cycles) increase their peak mileage from cycle to cycle more than 10-12% or 10 miles. If a runner moves straight from one marathon cycle to another marthon cycle they may might only spend 8-10 weeks getting up to the new mileage level before beginning sharpening. This generally would allow for a longer period in the sharpening phase.

For example: "Runner A" just completed a marathon with a maximum mileage of 80 miles and his next marathon is 24 weeks away (i.e Boston/Chicago). His cycle might look like this:

Weeks 1-3: Active Recovery

Weeks 4-12: Base Building (move to 90 miles)

Weeks 13-22: Sharpening

Weeks 23-24: Taper

But if the runner had say 28 weeks instead of 24, the schedule would look the same except for 4 additional weeks in the sharpening phase.

Nice posts MPR.

Can you please comment on the distinction between a typical 10mile tempo run and the T runs of Daniels which are broken up e.g 4 x 3m at T with recovery?

Would you have your runners doing the same 10m E + 10m MP for a number of weeks in a row or would you ramp them up?

Thanks!

MPR,

Great post, very clear and concise. A couple of questions for when you have time.

1.) You have included a 10 mile marathon paced run. Would you ever have your top runners go further than this? Im thinking back to the pre trials videos of Sell going 16 miles and Ritz going 14 (although Hudson said he would top out at 16 the following week).

2.) I totally agree with the 24 miler at steady pace. I fail to see how so many runners expect to be able to get the most out of themselves over a 26 mile race when they have never ran even close to that distance in training. Would you ever prescribe a slightly harder long run lasting the same amount of time as marathon goal time. For example Ive seen Nate Jenkins do 2 hr 10 long runs at a solid pace, with the goal of getting the body used to "working" (by that I mean not just tootling along at an eays pace) for the same duration as you expect to be racing.

3.) You say do 2 of these a week. Would this always be the case? The temptation would be do 2 of the workouts from 2-5 plus the long run each week. Do you think this would be doable assuming the runner has plenty of time to recover i.e doesnt work 40+ hrs a week. Im thinking workouts Tuesday/Friday then long run Sunday.

Thanks in advance.

Charub wrote:

Hi,

I must incorporte these WO in one week ? Sorry but don't understand...only two easy days, because I am incorporating 5 wo in 7 days ???????

May you show me one typical week ?

Thanks

Charub,

Sorry if I was unclear on this. You would never attempt to do all 5 of these workouts in 1 week. You would only do a maximum of 2 per week and only then if you had a mileage level in excess of 80 miles per week. Below 80 miles per week I would only do one of these workouts once every 4-7 days. All other days are easy mileage.

A Typical week in the sharepening phase a 100 mile per week runner might look like this:

Mon: AM 5 miles recovery run

PM 5 miles easy run

Tue: AM 12 miles easy run + strides (optional)

PM rest

Wed: AM 8 miles easy run

PM 5 miles easy run

Thu: AM 2 mile warm-up, 10k Tempo Run, 2 mile cool-down

PM 5 miles easy run

Fri: AM 8 miles easy run

PM 5 miles easy run

Sat: AM 10 miles easy run

PM 5 miles easy run

Sun: AM 20 miles - first 10 easy, last 10 @ MP

PM rest