NXN will end up being 2 races in one anyways! The top individuals will pound the crap out of the top teams. It'll be the elite HS runners, a big gap, and then all of the team competitors (with the exception of the few elite HSers who have great teams). On a flat course, a NTN-caliber team would average mid 15's for 5k. Most FL finalists could go sub-15.
I'm not a big fan of Nike as a company...don't carry them, haven't in years, never will (somehow they still manage to turn a profit!!!). That said, I am a big fan of the NIN and NON meets which I've been to a few times. I have been to FL Nationals once, not crazy about the course there. I think the tradition is a bit overrated, especially in light of the fact that the meet has been in Orlando a handful of times throughout its existence.
I hope that Nike adding individuals to its NXN meet will make that THE best meet, THE real national championship meet. Its probably good that the course can be muddy and slow, it deemphasizes times and numbers a bit, which can be overemphasized in HS racing. When's the last time people talked about times at the NCAA x-c meet? They vary given the conditions, but who cares? What did McDougal run vs. Rohatinsky??? Who cares. They won.
That said, if Nike is changing NTN to NXN and it is their intention to have the best runners and best teams and put on a true national championship, I would be inclined to considering that the race to point towards for any athlete I was coaching. I love Van Cortlandt Park, and it would be a bit of a downer to not have a regional there, particularly since I have a guy who has not made it there twice and will be a senior this fall. However, given all that Nike does with the other meets, I would pretty much instantly consider the Nike meet THE meet.
Unless, of course, Brooks took over Foot Locker Nationals and John Williams was the meet director...
Grote
yes way wrote:
at the high school level there's no end to the conrovery over who is the best runners or best teams for either field. coaches often complain that their kids never had a chance even though their times wre as good. you could have kids who run at only one of the FL or NTN and still not have enough slots. FL and NTN will both survive, they are not in competition at all. with all of the FL regionals, the tradition, the history, FL will never fade away. NTN should proceed as planned, there will be enough glory for all. Nike is doing a great job. Adidas, Asics, etc. should step up and become more like Nike. We saw how Dyestat exploded when Nike bought out the failed garage operation. Now we see Runnerspace taking over the groupie media genre. I would like to see more sponsor step up and provide some serious cash the way Nike and NYRR has. We shouldn't be afraid of them, instead we should encourage more companies/clubs to follow their lead.
the problem with this is that there USED to be no controversy, until recently the footlocker national champion was undisputably considered the best cross country runner in the nation...everyone went, everyone peaked for it, the best man won...end of story
this was before NTN, which meant that those rare individuals on a good team who can also contend for a national title had to either choose between the two meets or at least put themselves at a disadvantage having to deal with so many regional/national meets
this doesnt make NTN a bad thing, no one who has been there would say for one second that it is anything but great for the sport...however, there is still a conflict with footlocker
it is possible to end the controversy and declare a true individual national champion in cross country...ad that is simply to combine the races...which is exactly what Nike is trying to do...
Im not sure why the running community isnt embracing this idea
As a college coach I just want one national championship. It has become a pain now that there are two. I can't go to both when they are on the same day, so make it one.
hmmmmm wrote:
it is possible to end the controversy and declare a true individual national champion in cross country...ad that is simply to combine the races...which is exactly what Nike is trying to do...
There has been 1 individual national championship for 30 years, the Footlocker champ. I'm not sure how many individuals run both races (just a few) but you're crazy if you think people in the past have considered the NTN champ the individual national champ.
There has been no controversy.
The individual national champ has been the Footlocker champ. Now Nike by inviting individuals is trying to confuse the issue.
And a guy my brother coaches who ran NTN and a lot of people on this thread have bascially said Nike will win out because of all the free gear the athletes get. Is that what high school athletics have become? Are we going to have national high school team champs in all sports where it's feasible soon?
I definitely think this is a bad thing for the sport. I think we all want a single, undisputed national champion. This is increasing the competition between the sponsors, but it's watering down the competition between the competitors.
That's the point though... if they combined NTN and Footlocker into the same race (not just the same day, but the actual race) then there would be a single, undisputed national champion. This will only water down the competition if FL and Nike are unwilling to cooperate and compromise.
In England we have an age group championships, the English schools, now it may not be perfect but I think it works pretty well and everyone knows who the best is. You have to qualify for your county/state first by running the county champs and then like the best 6 or 9 (can't remember how many) then go on to compete for their county at the English schools. The championship gets moved around every year to a different course.
Not sure how similar it is to FL or Nike nationals but just thought I throw out what we do on the other side of the pond.
Footlocker aside, isn't Cross Country truly about the team? Its about more than the one stud who pulls everyone up, because if your 5th man eats shit your teams hopes of winning could be over. It is nice to recognize who is at the front of a meet, but ultimatley the goal is to have the best team, I like the idea of one National Championship which brings together the best teams rather than individuals. Is Footlocker a great meet? Yes, but the concept of individuals racing (with the regions scoring as a team) seems to run counter to what 99% of all High School kids can relate to which is giving everything you have because at any moment in the race you know 6 other guys on your team are also trying to bust ass.
Well the best move would be to convince Nike and Footlocker to sit down with someone who knows the sport and figure out the dates for regionals etc so they dont conflivt/make an athlete choose between the two so to speak
wejo wrote:
There has been 1 individual national championship for 30 years, the Footlocker champ. I'm not sure how many individuals run both races (just a few) but you're crazy if you think people in the past have considered the NTN champ the individual national champ.
There has been no controversy.
The individual national champ has been the Footlocker champ. Now Nike by inviting individuals is trying to confuse the issue.
And a guy my brother coaches who ran NTN and a lot of people on this thread have bascially said Nike will win out because of all the free gear the athletes get. Is that what high school athletics have become? Are we going to have national high school team champs in all sports where it's feasible soon?
i agree that footlocker is still considered the national championship but eventually there is going to be a kid who could win both...
a few years ago brian sullivan won FL south...he was from the woodlands
the york kid had a good chance to win nationals a few years back
eventually one of these kids is not going to be able to go to both and we will have controversy...
This could decend into the boxing world where there are, what 5 world titles? I don't see how it would be beneficial to have the two coexist. You could have stud runner A waiting to see if stud runner B commits to NXN so that he can duck him and run at FL. Also, there are too many races in the season for high school kids already. We have a 10 meet season followed by state qualifying and state championship meets. They you have the possibility of running 4 more meets with NXN and FL. So a kid could run up to 16 5Ks between late August and Thanksgiving.
Wejo:
I've never been to FL, but I coached my boys' team to NTN in 2007. Here's why I think that NTN is so cool:
1) You are there at the meet for 3 days with your TEAM, which most of my kids value over any other aspect of high school athletics. My guys have memories of a killer TEAM weekend rather than one guy having a memory of a trip to San Diego.
2) The free stuff (from Nike and Eastbay) was nice, but that's hardly a reason to go to the meet. It was probably a couple hundered dollars' worth of stuff (shoes, gear bags, uniforms, dri-fit shirt, and warmups). I can't imagine that FL doesn't swag-up their qualifiers.
3) Having the Nike-sponsored athletes hanging out was definitely cool--and those athletes themselves were cool about it. Webb, Lagat, Flanagan, Fleshmann, the Gouchers, Abdi--they were all there and seemed happy to be there and were available all weekend.
4) The team aspect of the race itself was pretty neat. XC is about team for most of us, and the fact that we were racing against some pretty phenomenal teams really put the sport in perspective. Track is an individual sport, and we have great events for that, but NTN is unique because it highlights the team orientation of xc. We were a very good team--maybe the best our state has ever had--but there were teams there that were a couple of levels better than we were. That can't do anything but raise the bar for the sport--for the vast majority who see xc as a team sport.
I hope that both an individual championship and a team championship survive and that they end up merging. I have not particular loyalty to Nike other than that they have been the ones to pony up and do it--if someone else were to do the same thing, it would be fine with me.
The thing that bothers me about NTN is that schools can buy their way into the event--my richie-rich high school has sent a team the past couple of years. They're not in the A race with the qualifiers, but they have the belief that they've competed in a national championship.
Something like the English schools model mentioned earlier or even the Junior Olympics, what I'd like to see is an individual state-by-state championship following the team state meets. Top 7 are the team, and the states knock heads at NTN or whatever the national champ turns out to be. That way the kids who are serious about elite competition get both the national championship experience and the team camaraderie with other kids from the same state.
I really agree 100% with Wejo. Also the individual runners have always expressed the excitment of going to Balboa. The guys all met on the beach and ran several days together. A dream for many. I wonder how a poll with all kids, teams etc on going to Balboa vs NTN would come out. In my experience with high school kids...they did not care about anything concerning Cal. kids advantage etc. They wanted that Cal trip and the beaches etc etc!
There are a huge bunch of Nike employees on all boards responding to all posts at all times. This is a huge effort by many people of Nike. I know its real CC (hic)in the mud and slop, but I like Balboa and the elite 40...just once. Our # 2 state kid went to NTN, I think last year? Went face flat in the water. He blew up at his coach because he could have went to Balboa. It was sad. Maybe the year before...can't remember. I'll donate to Footlocker.
P.S. I may be wrong on this..but didn't Chris Derrick run NTN then fly to Footlocker and take second? Why couldn't they do the whole thing at Balboa. Maybe over 3 days where they run Footlocker first..and the Individual elites..then come back 48 hours later and run with their team. Seems to me several elite individual runners who went to NTN..were not pushing for the individual win but only running at the head of their team more or less. Just a thought..ok cut my head off now.
Just got this e-mail from a Nike rep:
NIKE TEAM NATIONALS TO BECOME NIKE CROSS NATIONALS IN 2008
For the first time in history, a single race—Nike Cross Nationals—will crown both individual and team national champions for high-school-aged runners.
BEAVERTON, ORE. (May 13, 2008) –Nike today announced that its Nike Team Nationals (NTN) team cross-country championship will expand this year to include individuals, becoming Nike Cross Nationals (NXN). The Nike Team Nationals event, which began in 2004, featured the 22 best teams of each gender selected via a series of regional qualifying events. This year, the top 22 teams will be joined by the 90 fastest individuals from non-qualifying teams. Nike Cross Nationals is the only national cross-country championship for both teams and individuals.
“Nike Cross Nationals is going to be the ultimate competition for high school cross country,” said Ken Dice, vice president of the Nike USA Brand. “It’s true cross country, and a true national championship. We’re inviting the best runners in the country, whether they compete individually or as part of a team. Nike Cross Nationals is going to take cross country to a whole new level of competition for these elite athletes.”
The teams and individuals competing in Nike Cross Nationals are selected through a series of regional qualifying events. The nine regions represented are: Heartland, Midwest, Northwest, Southwest, South, Northeast, Southeast, California and New York. There are also four at-large teams.
Two-time Olympian Dathan Ritzenhein said, “The opportunity to compete both as one and as a team can’t be understated. Until now, there hasn’t been one event, one day, to award the national individual and team champions in the sport.” Ritzenhein has been involved with NTN since its inception, and has won individual cross country titles in high school while competing with a nationally ranked team. He added, “Everyone participating in Nike Cross Nationals will have the experience of a lifetime. I’m a little jealous Nike Cross Nationals didn’t exist when I was that age--I would have loved to have run in it.”
In the regional qualifying events, slated to begin in November, the two top teams and the top five individuals of each gender who are not on a team will advance to Nike Cross Nationals. The championship meet of Nike Cross Nationals will be held in Portland, Ore. on Saturday, Dec. 6, 2008.
About Nike Cross Nationals
The Nike Cross Nationals is a part of the larger Nike Nationals championship series which includes the Nike Outdoor Nationals and Nike Indoor Nationals. The series of events was established in 2004 to help strengthen the national circuit for cross country and track and field competition. Following in the tradition of European cross country meets, the event will again feature a multiple loop race course with man-made obstacles built on the inside of the horse race track at Portland Meadows in Oregon. Spectators can enjoy a continuous live view of the race from the venue’s enclosed 3,000-seat grandstand. Again this year the Nike Cross National event is providing coaches handheld computer devices, utilizing FinishLynx tracking technology (created specifically for Nike Team Nationals, now Nike Cross Nationals), to see team scores posted to a live leader board every kilometer. The technology was first introduced in the races’ inaugural year and provides instant feedback on a teams' position in the race. In addition to real-time race tracking, event data is then transferred to live to
http://www.nikecrossnationals.com
following the completion of the race so spectators, participants and coach can replay the race of select teams and/or individuals exactly how it was run.
About Nike
NIKE, Inc. based near Beaverton, Oregon, is the world's leading designer, marketer and distributor of authentic athletic footwear, apparel, equipment and accessories for a wide variety of sports and fitness activities. Wholly owned Nike subsidiaries include Converse Inc., which designs, markets and distributes athletic footwear, apparel and accessories; Cole Haan Holdings Incorporated, which designs, markets and distributes luxury shoes, handbags, accessories and coats; Umbro Ltd., a leading United Kingdom-based global football (soccer) brand; and Hurley International LLC, which designs, markets and distributes action sports and youth lifestyle footwear, apparel and accessories. For more information, visit
.
Coach Individual elite. wrote:
P.S. I may be wrong on this..but didn't Chris Derrick run NTN then fly to Footlocker and take second? Why couldn't they do the whole thing at Balboa. Maybe over 3 days where they run Footlocker first..and the Individual elites..then come back 48 hours later and run with their team. Seems to me several elite individual runners who went to NTN..were not pushing for the individual win but only running at the head of their team more or less. Just a thought..ok cut my head off now.
YES! I dont see how nike wouldn't want to run their race in san diego. What i would like to see is nike help out footlocker; move NTN out to SD and keep the whole footlocker thing going. There is absolutely no better experience for a high schooler than getting flown out to the hotel del coronado and spending time with a bunch of their peers in a truly unforgettable weekend. The only reason nike is pushing their "one world order" cross country is because they want to get it in their own back yard. People have been saying that nike has the resources to make anything possible. Well s*** lets see them make a real investment in our sport. Spend the extra chump change to keep a good thing going over in balboa.
I hate the idea that nike is trying to erase all running history except for its own. Instead of throwing its weight around to create NEW! SHINY! cross country, nike should be trying to support what FLN has kept alive for almost 30 years now.
I will say it now: The only reason nike has to oust FLN from its place as THE xc national championship is for personal gain. plain and simple.
As a high school cross country coach, I feel that we are getting away from what makes this sport great. I realize the need for a national championship race and I have even taken athletes to the Foot Locker Meets, but my feeling is that we are getting into too many races and too long of a post-season. When kids have to race hard at Leagues, Districts, States, BorderWars, Nike Regionals (or Foot Locker Regionals, then Nationals all within six weeks, everyone is burned out...Coaches, Parents, and most importantly, great runners. Just my two cents.
What about the AAU? For many years that was the national championship before Footlocker came along. Someone with more money always comes along to replace a "tradition". The AAU championship is still held every year.
Alan