Andrew Wheating 2007 vs Tom Byers 1974: a dose of reality

One of these?http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Tom_Byers/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm

the point could be wrote:

I recall this story on SI titles "The Rabbit Who Ran Away"

Was that about the:

"...Bislett Games that summer, Byers beat a field that included Steve Ovett and Steve Scott."

It would be awesome to get a link to that story.

I agree with questions the original here. There are way too many unknowns. A major part of that is because you only put a few numbers here and basically say "discuss". What is the point of this discussion? From these numbers, I gather that only 1 year Wheating was faster than Byers, when they were both 18 (4:12 vs 4:18). Then, when they were 19, Byers crushed him (3:37 vs 3:45). And you give us Wheating's nearest performance to Byers now, when Wheating is 20 vs. Byers at 19. So it is safe to assume that Wheating is still catching Byers? Is that the point your making?

A few more performances, and DIRECT correlations would be nice - nice taking a performance at 17 and comparing it to an 18 year old. This is definitely not apples to apples, more like apples to a steak. Be more elaborate if you want a successful discussion because there are plenty of ideas flying around, just none that are arguing the same concept or main point.

Ok. So they both made remarkable improvements. I would prefer the title to say Wheating AND Byers. There's no need to have a "vs" because as other posters have said there's too many variables to compare. The one thing that stands out where there IS no argument is they BOTH rocketed onto the scene.

Good job to them both. And good luck to them both (Byers must be in his 50's now but could probably still set age records if he can train without recurring injury).

Anyone have any cool Byers stories? He seems like a bad ass.

Tom Carter, a very good upstate NY runner from the 80's once told me that Tom Byers was certifiably bonkers. And that means a lot because Tom Carter was as crazy as they come.

the point could be wrote:

I recall this story on SI titles "The Rabbit Who Ran Away"

Was that about the:

"...Bislett Games that summer, Byers beat a field that included Steve Ovett and Steve Scott."

It would be awesome to get a link to that story.

Check out 1981aLaN's great collection of videos -- this one is where Byers stole it:

William J. Clinton wrote:

Stupid point. There was no Internet or "blogs" in 1974. If there was any "talk" about Byers, it would have been in done in incredibly small circles, and I'm sure those that had anything to say back then aren't on letsrun.com now to substantiate all "the talk"...

Stupid read.

Wheatings "lack of experience" doesn't approach Byers lack of experience. I'm not comparing the chatter, then and now.

hold the phone wrote:

Go speed racer go wrote:

I've stated my point twice.

I didn't realize that only one runner in the history of the world could hold the title of "guy who is very talented and made a huge improvement in a short period of time." Are you trying to say that, because Byers made a huge improvement 35 years ago, people shouldn't be impressed that Wheating made a big improvement this year?

No, I' saying (again) that the "neophyte soccer player" hype is way overstated. Wheating was a 3:45 runner last year. He's not just "some rube" who was kicking a soccer ball last year. On the other hand, Byers was only a 4:18 high miler the year before he ran 3:37.

A dose of reality.

Go speed racer go wrote:

William J. Clinton wrote:

Stupid point. There was no Internet or "blogs" in 1974. If there was any "talk" about Byers, it would have been in done in incredibly small circles, and I'm sure those that had anything to say back then aren't on letsrun.com now to substantiate all "the talk"...

Stupid read.

Wheatings "lack of experience" doesn't approach Byers lack of experience. I'm not comparing the chatter, then and now.

Well I guess we'll have to take your gut feeling on this. Apparently Byers popped out of a shell prior to running his 4:18.

Questions wrote:

Most importanly to me, did Byers run his 3:37 with a 26.1 last 200? Did he blow away the field to win?

Why is that important? Wheating blew away a field of chumps.

Byers 1st 3:37 was at AAU Nationals. After running 3:42.4 (a new PR) the day before in qualifying, he took charge from the beginning and led for the first 3 laps. He got passed on the final backstretch, knocking him to 4th, before rallying on the final straight to finish 2nd to Rod Dixon. Byers time put him from nowhere to 2nd in 3:37.9.

Byers would go on to win the Jr Nationals 1500/800 double, then run 3:39.9 at US/USSR Junior meet, and finally ran 3:37.5 later that Summer in Europe.

T&FN Interview

T&FN: From 4:18 to 3:55(3:37) is a big drop. What caused it?

Byers: “One reason is coach Epskamp's philosophy of a lot of distance running. In high school, I don't think I ever got over 25 miles in one week.... Now I'll do 5 to 7 ½ miles every morning and then at night I might go out for 10 miles and then come in and do some intervals.”

T&FN: How do you feel today (no indication when this interview was made)

Byers: I’m awfully tired because Saturday I did a hard 22 miles. Saturday is usually my distance day.

T&FN: … Is that patterned after the Lydiard training?

Byers: No, just happened to be the distance I ran.

Go speed racer go wrote:

It means all of this talk about Wheatings lack of 'experience' and 'kicking the soccer ball' pales in comparison to Byers when he ran his 3:37.

Stupid read? How about stupid writing.

Learn to write a grammatically correct sentence. The subject of your first (fragmented)sentence is either "It", which is never stated, or is "all this talk about Wheating", which you then say "pales in comparison". Your comparison is between the talk regarding the two runners.

Idiot.

Grow up.

Go speed racer go wrote:

Grow up.

I usually let this crap go, but you just don't want to admit that your post was written in such haste that you appear as a complete idiot. You might have had a point in there somewhere, but what I and a few others have noted is that it was not really clear in your post just wha the hell you meant.

Grow up? Geez, that's a really well thought out retort...

Go speed racer go wrote:

No, I' saying (again) that the "neophyte soccer player" hype is way overstated.

How is it overstated? Wheating said that three years ago he was just kicking a soccer ball around. That's the truth. He never that he was 4:18 miler last year, and thus equal to Byers in the annals of rises from obscurity. That comparison popped, entirely unbidden, from your fevered mind.

Your message, essentially, is "Stop being excited, everybody! Stop saying this guy had a surprising or impressive race! There's guy who once had an even more surprising and exciting race, so everyone stop being excited!"

Forget the dose of reality, you need a dose of Ex-lax.

[quote]replier of posts wrote:

One of these?

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Tom_Byers/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm

Ha! I'd forgotten about this race. Very refreshing in an era when Covette were exciting but predictable. Byers had guts to go for it. He got lucky, though: the rest of the field just miscalculated. Never heard of him again.

I wonder if the OP (Go speed racer go) IS Tom Byers?

Why is the guy so continually obsessed with pointing out how much "better" of an improvement Byers had compared to Wheating?

Give it a rest. They both made phenomenal improvements. We can't predict the future with Wheating but I hope he is able to have a longer, more consistent career than Tom.

not much wrote:

I wonder if the OP (Go speed racer go) IS Tom Byers?

Why is the guy so continually obsessed with pointing out how much "better" of an improvement Byers had compared to Wheating?

Give it a rest. They both made phenomenal improvements. We can't predict the future with Wheating but I hope he is able to have a longer, more consistent career than Tom.

No I'm not Byers. By your logic then you must be Andrew Wheating? Who else would want to perpetuate the myth of "rube to champion" so bad?

More ad hominem please.

Go speed racer go wrote:

[quote]Questions wrote:

Most importanly to me, did Byers run his 3:37 with a 26.1 last 200? Did he blow away the field to win?

Why is that important? Wheating blew away a field of chumps.

------------------------------------

Because to Wheating, those were not chumps. A year ago most of those guys would have stomped him. And because you're using times as a reference point (where most of us are using the time along with the actual race to measure the success). And because I think if the race had been run at 3:36 we would be talking about a faster race for Wheating. And because with that kind of racing ability Wheating is not just a 3:36 runner in Europe, he's looking like he could be a winning factor in competitive races. By that I mean anything that is not going faster than 3:34 pace by half way, and we know a lot of big championship races start out slow. I don't know how many 800's he has run, but his 1:47 low (WIN) at stanford the other weekend also isn't too shabby.

That's why people are so impressed. He is green, and we don't need to look back through history to see if someone else was more green when they ran some other fast time because you really can't make an accurate comparison.

Byers was a freakish talent, no doubt. But I for one don't need him as a reference point to confirm or disconfirm the validity of Wheating's performance. I know well how big that was.

I'm sure you could go back to when Pre started running and find that one year he was trying out for the high school football team and the following year the was setting some high school two mile record, but again I don't really care.

Wheating is here and now, and I believe he's leading the country right now for the 1500. A sophomore, after less than 3 years of running. I think he's put himself in the top ten on both the mile and 1500 lists at Oregon, already. That is a pretty big accolade.

[/quote]

Learn to write a grammatically correct sentence. The subject of your first (fragmented)sentence is either "It", which is never stated, or is "all this talk about Wheating", which you then say "pales in comparison". Your comparison is between the talk regarding the two runners.

Idiot.[/quote]

Clinton,

this post makes you sound like a real pompous dickhead.

This is a bad tack in an argument; resorting to picking the guys sentence apart like a high school english teacher.

I keep clicking this thread to find out in what way byer's was a nutjob.