Is there really any point to Pre's 30/40 workout?

vandergraafgenerator wrote:

No, I made a typo 2x5 minutes

That's still an impressive workout - going more than 1500m each at 4.30 (so about 1Mile+). I would think that one would need to be in close to 9 minute 3k shape to handle two of them, unless there is significant recovery between each. Nevertheless, it's a good session, although one might want to be careful with athletes this age as that is rather an adult session. Not calling you out, merely saying that you might want to be sure that your athletes (presumably you coach more than one exceptional individual) can truly handle this. These types of sessions are particularly difficult for many runners (pace-changing), although beneficial if ready to handle this type of session. It's the recovery that's really hard, not the pace of the fast section.

as a 1500m pace change - (80% of fast part)

300m Fast/tempo/fast/tempo/fast (48/60/48/60/48) 48's would still be fast = 4.24 1500m!!! Since 60's are 16.40 5k pace and 48's are 2.08 800m pace, that's a tough combination. At a Top-class level for College women that would be (2.00 800, 15.30 5k) 45/56 = 4.07 1500m, very difficult to do two of these, as one would be enough to win NCAA's!!

These are very high level girls 2'08"/2'10 for 800, shouldn't take much working out .

Perhaps you might consider 1500m goal pace, let's say 4.15 - which is 51sec/300m. 80% is about 64sec (or a bit slower than threshold pace,according to Daniel's at level 65).

51/64/51/64/51 = 4.41 for 1500m (9.22 3000m pace). This might be more appropriate for all but the absolutely exceptional HS girl (like a Zola Budd or Mary Decker). The point is to save really hard workouts - those that even the letsrun crowd would be impressed by - to an older age when they might benefit even more. And I'd bet only a handful of HS girls would handle even this session.

They are 3, all 800 runners, sports studies. 2/08/2.10

for 8,none of them has tried a competitive 1500 yet.

All 18 or 17 going on 18; That work out knocks them out, they don't run it every week, once in a 3 week cycle.

Despite the comments on this thread, I still think it's bullshit workout. You can a lot of other stuff that'll get more done. Not many races change pace from 5:20/mile to 4:00 mile, and even if they do, your overall fitness and speed is going to help you pick it up more than anything, and if a 30/40 workout is the best you can come up with to develop a kick you should either stop coaching yourself or get a coach who actually knows something.

A lot of Pre's sessions, be they 1200s or miles etc. have been elevated to legendary status. Butt nugget is quite right - sessions are impressive when they are race specific. Frank Horwill wrote:

In 1972 I watched Steve Prefontaine (USA) in the Olympic village do 3 x 1 mile in 4:08 (12:56/5K) with 15 minutes rest after each. Many onlookers thought this was a sensational session and tipped him for the gold medal. However, we do not have 15 minutes' rest after the first mile of a 5K race. It would have been better if he had done 3 x 1 mile in 4:16 with 200m jog recovery. He finished fourth in the final in a time of 13:28 (64.5/400).

You don't get a 200 meter jog recovery either, so what point is being made?

Like was said before, it was basically a test. It sounds like a way to test yourself without running a race. Run 40/30 until you can't keep up the pace. For mortal runners you might do 43/33 or 45/35. Pick two efforts, let's say halfmarathon and mile effort. Maybe once a month? Similar but longer workouts would be effective at progressing a workout at a certain pace. So, let's take 4x1mile at 5k pace w/400m recovery in 2:30. Keep the speed portion pace the same but run the rest faster...2:00 per 4:00, once you can do that move up to 1:45 per 400m then 1:30, etc. Good way to prep for that race.

Alan

You couldn't be more wrong. It's not "a workout." It's PART of a workout. And it's extremely effective. A session I would do it in would be:

2-3 mile warmup

6-8 laps of 30-40(depending of fitness level); 10 min. rest

6x300 @ 42 with 45 sec. recovery; 5 min. rest

4X200 fast; jog 200 recovery

2-3 mile cooldown

The season that I regularly incorporated this workout I ran 3 seconds faster over 1500 than the previous year. I feel like it definitely made a difference for me.

Canova would disagree with you.

He recommends pace change workouts like Pre's 30/40 or Lydiards 50m sprint/50m cruise or alternating 100s. He said it's one thing that you used to see Americans and Europeans do, but you don't anymore and it's a missing part of the puzzle.

I'll try and find the post.

As far as the workout goes, you introduce some lactate into the system and then keep going at a pace that does not allow that much clearance, then you introduce more lactate, and on and on. So you get a steadily increasing amount of lactate in the muscle

Canova loves pace change workouts, one of his standards is 20k on the track alternating half marathon goal pace and slower running that over the course of doing the workout many times you try to work the rest k down to marathon pace. Also in many of his schedules he has guys do workouts of this variety. An example from Mubarack Shami's training last spring when he finished in the top 10 at world cross, ran 60:40 for the half marathon and won the paris marathon in 2:07:19 is a) 25:00 warm-up + 15 x 600m in 1:42 rec. 200m

in 48.0 (totally 12 km on track in 37:33)

Also all his marathon pace workouts are like this so if you were training to run a 2:06 marathon,3:00 per k pace you would do workouts like 4or 5x 5k at 15 minutes, 4x6k at 18:00, 3x7k at 21:00 all run with 1k rest in 3:20 (thats 5:20 mile pace on the rest)

The purpose of workouts like this is not to be race specific but instead to force your body to learn to recover at sub maximal speeds. So that in a surging race you can recover. If all your easy runs are at 6 min pace or slower who is your body going to be any good at recovering if you slow to 5;00 pace in the middle of your cross country race. More over the most underestimated type of running in American training is fast easy running. the art of running fast and relaxed is lost on Americans almost entirely. Try it and I promise you will see results in your racing. Be it by using workouts like these or doing easy mile repeats instead of an easy run one day a week. For example your goal 5 mile time is 25:00, so one day a week instead of doing a 10 mile in 62 and a 5 mile in 35 and calling it an easy day, do 6xmile in 5:20 w/ 1 minute jog rest and still do the 5 in 35 morning run. You will expend no more energy then you would doing the 10 and you will see results because it is a speed you never train and as such it effects your systems in a way they are being under trained at now.

One of the early season staples of our training in junior college was the 70/90 workout. 1 lap in 70, 1 lap in 90 continuous for 4 miles.

I could never do the whole 4 miles straight through....always had to take an extra lap jog after 2 miles. Our better guys (low 31 and sub 31 10k) could roll through that workout pretty easily early in the year.

Another workout we would do was 12x400 with splits of 35/30

Later in the season, 1200 with splits of 72-70-68.

I think that the point of all of the workouts was to make it easier to change paces in the middle of a race.

ety456 wrote:

It can be compared to the Michigan workout in that it works anaerobic and threshold systems. Pre ran mile pace for 200 and threshold pace for 200.

I highly doubt pre\'s threshold pace was 80 second quarters....

this workout seems to stem from the old school of thought where runners did crazy workouts just because they could brag about them later at a bar or something, i thoroughly agree that more could be accomplished over 4 miles physiologically speaking, however if running the 30/40 drill gives u the confidence to destroy every american runner like pre did, then so be it!

There have been many variations of the "pace change", or "sprint/tempo" workouts that have been employed by great athletes and coaches. One of the benefits, other than whatever aerobic/anaerobic fitness, is that you learn to retain a very fast turnover during the recovery phase, with minimal power input. I guess it could be defined as a neuro-muscular benefit --- moving quickly with maximal relaxation.

Ron Clarke told us his sessions were 100 sprint/100 "tempo bend" / 100 sprint, etc. He said he sprinted the straights flat out and tried to relax and maintain the tempo around the turn. He got up to 9 laps of doing this with intensity, and said others couldn't get past 4 laps, including some International runners.

Lydiard had his athlete do laps of 50 sprint/50 tempo, and was looking for the same effect as described above. He called them "killer dillers".

I watched Thomas Wessinghage, the great German runner, do 2 x 2000 m. on the track, doing each run in a 50/50 mode.

It was a very impressive workout - I think he ran around 5:15 to 5:20 for each.

Who was in Eugene and watched Rono run the NCAA heats of the 5000 m. in this manner? He ran a steady first Mile, and then did a 100/100 workout the rest of the day, and ran low 13:20's.

We used to do a whistle workout with 6 seconds sprinting and 9 seconds "spinning", for a lap or so, as a sharpener for track season.

Obviously, those who don't think there is any benefit to such sessions know better than those listed above.

he never should have done the 30/40 drunk.

What is the "spinning" portion consist of?

precisely wrote:

You don't get a 200 meter jog recovery either, so what point is being made?

Horwill was a bit of a nut job. You are a bit delusional if changing the workout a very short time before the event was going to make a difference.

There have been plenty of studies that suggest things like 30/30 work well. This obviously slightly different but the basic idea is the same.

Now if you should run til you drop or stop before that is more debatable.

jecht wrote:

What is the "spinning" portion consist of?

I believe it is what some these days would call a 'float'. That's just a guess, but it sounds a lot like farther workouts where the point is to hammer the 'on' segments but the real point is to keep the 'off' honest. I'm just imagining what he means though.....

Nate's (nj) post above explains the idea of learning to recover while still going fast. An earlier poster who's handle I don't recall explained the lactate idea. Canova likes this stuff and I think it makes sense but personally have a hard time doing it much, preferring a real 'rest' interval during which speed is no factor and I can just jog. It's good to break that psychological habit or need and I will do fartleks like I described, during which I really try not to jog and let the lactate, fatigue, and mental strain accumulate. This is as opposed to getting a real reset between each hard bout.

By the way, I was under the impression that Bowerman came up with the 30/40. I don't have a copy now, but it may be mentioned in the Kenny Moore book on Bowerman and the era in general. Dellinger kept the idea going and had Salazar do it. I don't remember the number of laps that each lasted, but I think Al has the record.