The Amazing Pat Porter

"That's a laugh. Porter was nowhere near Virgin's League."

Pat Porter = 10000 27:46.80 1988

Craig Virgin = 10000 27:29.16 1980 [quote]

I'm not taking anything away from Virgin, but these seem pretty close. The point was the depth during Virgin's era was not as deep as Porter's. You failed to mention Porter was 4th and 6th(?) at World xc (in deeper fields- start of Kenyan dominance). He may not have been the same track runner, but XC they were damn close to equal.

Bottom line 'nowhere near' is ridiculous. They were both great.

The point was the depth during Virgin's era was not as deep as Porter's. You failed to mention Porter was 4th and 6th(?) at World xc (in deeper fields- start of Kenyan dominance). He may not have been the same track runner, but XC they were damn close to equal.

I'm too lazy to look it up, but I don't remember any Kenyans in the world x-c when Porter had his best placing. (I think it was in '84, when the course was set up at the horse track in East Rutherford, New Jersey, and Lopes won in a pretty close finish.) I think the Kenyans started participating in the event shortly thereafter.

As I recall, there was no significant African participation the first year that Virgin won. The next year, in Paris, the Ethiopeans showed up, but they miscounted the laps and sprinted one lap too early. (Similar to what Bekele did last year.) Virgin went flying by when the Ethiopeans slowed to a jog, and they were unable to recover and catch him.

Sagarin wrote:

Robirds was one of the guys I was referring to. He ran a 9:43 at the state meet in Denver @ 5400 feet. I was in the race and had never heard of the guy until that day. Still, impressive improvement to a 28:23 10k, within three years I think. I was told that he trained like a mad man.

I ran a 10K against Robirds in 1990, I believe it was, not long after he ran his 10,000 PR. I hadn't even heard of the guy. He beat me by two seconds, I think. I don't remember much about him, except that his running form seemed weird for such a good runner. I ran against Porter and Robirds in a five-miler a couple months later. Robirds was still in his early 20s -- 22 or 23 at most -- but I don't think I ever heard of any races that he ran after that.

Vigil churned out a lot of good runners at Adams State. Perhaps they were just talented guys whose high-altitude running in high school hadn't produced attention-grabbing times, but it's hard to think of any other coach who took so many unknown high school runners and developed them into national-caliber athletes.

Avocados Number wrote:

Ethiopeans

Oops! Ethiopians.

Avocados Number wrote:

As I recall, there was no significant African participation the first year that Virgin won. The next year, in Paris, the Ethiopeans showed up, but they miscounted the laps and sprinted one lap too early. (Similar to what Bekele did last year.) Virgin went flying by when the Ethiopeans slowed to a jog, and they were unable to recover and catch him.

You recollection is foggy.

Avocados Number wrote:

Avocados Number wrote:

Ethiopeans

Oops! Ethiopians.

Epo-thians. OOPS!!!

Tale of the tape wrote:

That's a laugh. Porter was nowhere near Virgin's League.

Pat Porter

5000 13:33.91 1988

10000 27:46.80 1988

World Rankings = None

American Records = None

Craig Virgin

5000 13:19.1 1980

10000 27:29.16 1980

Marathon 2:10:26 1981

World Cross Champion 1980, 1981

World Rankings 10000m 1979(2nd ), 1980(2nd)

American Records, 100000m

Porter was an XC guy. He had 8 straight US XC victories (an American record), 4 top 10 World Cross finishes, 2-time Olympian, and was the 85 World Cup Silver Medalist. I think some of those would translate to some sort of World Ranking.

vaughn ran 905 at the state meet which is ridiculous. it might not be as impressive as 845 at sea level but still nuts.

and porter had an anaerobic threshold of 96% max heart rate. so in a sub maximal race like xc he just ran at threshold the whole way and then kicked at the end. his running economy was probably excellent as well. he probably could have run a great marathon.

Tale of the tape wrote:

Avocados Number wrote:

As I recall, there was no significant African participation the first year that Virgin won. The next year, in Paris, the Ethiopeans showed up, but they miscounted the laps and sprinted one lap too early. (Similar to what Bekele did last year.) Virgin went flying by when the Ethiopeans slowed to a jog, and they were unable to recover and catch him.

You recollection is foggy.

Perhaps, but as far as I know, it's correct.

Who are you Avocados #?

impartial wrote:

Who are you Avocados #?

As you've guessed, Avocados Number is just my nickname. My real name is 6.02 x 10 to the twenty-third power.

sjc wrote:

vaughn ran 905 at the state meet which is ridiculous. it might not be as impressive as 845 at sea level but still nuts.

and porter had an anaerobic threshold of 96% max heart rate. so in a sub maximal race like xc he just ran at threshold the whole way and then kicked at the end. his running economy was probably excellent as well. he probably could have run a great marathon.

Yes, what Vaughn did at the state meet was earth-shattering. No one else has come close. It is tantamount to what Matt Tebo did in New Mexico. I don't think we'll ever see a sub-9:00 at altitude. It would take the equivalent of a Jeff Nelson, sub-8:40 type of effort at sea level, and no one is going to be able to do that solo. Back in the days when I was running, 9:30 was the standard. You run 9:30, and you're probably around a 9:10 guy at sea level off of your 40-50 miles per week. And you likely have the potential of a sub-9:00 guy with a good bit more volume at the faster pace sea level affords you, if you don't get injured. One of the guys I beat at the state meet and one of the guys whose school record I took both went on to run 13:48 5ks. They were 9:36 guys as preps. A lot of unrecognized talent at elevation.

Avocados Number wrote:

As you've guessed, Avocados Number is just my nickname. My real name is 6.02 x 10 to the twenty-third power.

So are you really an economist or a chemist? I've got a question for you on a separate topic later today Avogadro, pertaining to your thoughts on what I see brewing for the economy and the coming election, and it's most likely aftermath, both very ominous as far as I'm concerned. People do not yet see the gravity of the systemic meltdown we are experiencing and the Fed's inability to do anything about it. But I don't have time to get into it now. I will tee it up later on a separate thread.

I trained 6 years with Pat Porter and ran on several Championship teams with Rick Robirds. My observation is that both Porter and Robirds had unbelieveable aerobic thresholds and recovery abilities. I always attributed it to very high slow-twich fibers that, through training, were converted to the fast-moving slow-twitch variety (I'd have to dig into my physiology texts to use the right terms, but no time this morning). I distinctly recall how they could lash out 16x700m reps at 4:30 mile paces with 90 second recoveries on Monday, then blast up a 10 mile mountain run topping out over 10,000' on Tuesday, cruise a flat 10 miles at 7,5000' in 60 minutes and then come to the repeat mile work-out on Thursday fully rested and ready to go. I tried that one season and nearly died. I was always sad that Pat never ran the Marathon because I thought he could've rivaled anyone at that distance. But he always shunned the idea because he was so in love with the 10K... hard to blame him. He was a marvel, a blessing and a curse to train with...

Whatever happend to Robirds? I mean, I know he has a family and is employed, but what happened to his running? Seems like he fell off the radar after 1990.

Runningart2004 wrote:

The Joe Vigil answer is the right one.

There have been a lot of examples of 4:30/9:50 guys and similar "slow high school to elite" stories. Brian Sell is one. I think Dick Beardsley was another.

Alan

Yep. As much as you all hate him, Jeff Galloway was another -- he ran 9:48 in high school, and he became an Olympian.

Lots of things at play there -- 9:51 isn't THAT slow. Everyone develops at different rates, and everyone's mileage and dedication is at different levels at different times.

That's some awesome footage. I believe that Lopes went on to run 27:17 that year for 10k, as well as the Olympic marathon gold. I stand by my earlier comment that if you put that Pat Porter in this same race some four or five years earlier, he challenges Virgin for a world cross title.